Navigate the Anxiety That Comes With A Promotion
Episode 442 | Host: Emilie Aries | Guest: Jodi Flynn
Tips for dealing with the fear of rising in the ranks of leadership.
Everyone’s leadership trajectory experience is different, but one thing hits just about every woman at some point on this journey: a crushing crisis of confidence that leaves us wondering how we got here and whether we can handle this new responsibility.
In this episode, I speak with Jodi Flynn, a fellow leadership development CEO. Jodi’s organization, Women Taking the Lead, works with individuals, allies, and organizations to close the gender parity gap by attracting, developing, and successfully promoting more women into senior levels of leadership.
Jodi and I have seen this trend of “freaking out” when a certain level of leadership is achieved, both in our clients and on our own professional paths. It might set in during your first promotion to management, or it may take hold when the C-suite doors open, but some combination of the onslaught of new responsibility, the dramatic change in role and expectation, and the lack of people around the table who look like you can spark this state of panic.
Summon your inner boss identity
Jodi and I have both encountered so many women frozen in self-doubt after a big promotion—imposter syndrome at its finest. They say things like, “maybe they picked the wrong person” or, “I’m completely underqualified,” and the feeling usually coincides with slamming on the brakes because they don’t feel they can handle more.
Try this: designate a persona who is totally capable of nailing this role. You have the experience, your organization put their faith in you for this role, and you know you’re good at your job, so channel all that confidence into your inner Boss Identity. Go ahead and give her a name if it helps personify this part of yourself. This isn’t about playing pretend, it’s allowing yourself to be a bit firmer, a bit more decisive, and a bit less uncomfortable with delegating when your role requires these characteristics.
Overwhelm causes so much strife, and it permeates through your team, too. You might even assume everyone is feeling as overwhelmed as you, even if they aren’t, and the team feels stressed when they see evidence that their boss is in the mire. Foster an openness on your team that makes it clear they can trust you when they need you, and that you trust them enough to delegate when you need to take things off your plate.
Let go and embrace the new
Another overarching theme of promotion panic is micromanaging. We’ve all had a micromanager we love to hate; often that irritating practice stems from a fear of losing control, and it can happen to the best of us. If you keep tabs on, check in on, and maybe even help out on every little task to which your team has been assigned, things can’t get out of control, right?
Similarly, some people deal with the drastic change of a leadership promotion by refusing to let go of the work they used to do. These are skills you honed to perfection, the very skills that got you your promotion! The problem is that you were chosen for this leadership position precisely because you proved yourself capable of a more visionary, bigger-picture role.
Delegate, and stop pitching in on your former tasks to help your team. Stop feeling like you’re no longer contributing because you have fewer physical deliverables to check off.
Speaking of delegating, I have a whole Bossed Up episode on this topic: episode 407 How to Delegate Without Feeling So Guilty.
Recognize the worth of your new role
Speaking of deliverables, the shift from task-based to strategic and goal-setting work is a jarring one, and it’s one a lot of people who transition into leadership roles don’t feel properly prepared for. As frontline staff, we’re conditioned to make our long list of to-dos as checked off as possible at the end of the day.
In a leadership role, though, you might not have such tangible deliverables, and that doesn’t mean you aren’t contributing. Remember that building relationships and strategic partnerships with other departments, devising improvements to current or upcoming roadblocks, and being there to support your team (but not work beside them) are vital parts of any enterprise.
This mental and physical shift isn’t easy to make, but if you can relax into it, you’ll contribute more value to your team and the whole organization than you will by continuing to pick up work someone else is capable of doing.
On her website, Jodi has a great resource for helping women self-assess these very leadership skills. Her quick, thoughtful assessment helps you identify your strengths and challenges and feel more confident and competent in your current or upcoming role.
Don’t set aside the self-care
Lastly, don’t forego the internal work.
A leadership position is always going to require a lot of effort, and most of us know firsthand that when the pressure’s on, our self-care practices are the first to get the boot. Here are two really good reasons to fight that urge:
The hobbies, social engagements, and healthful practices that nurture us are more, not less, important when we’re overwhelmed. We need to feed our souls so our bodies and brains can keep on doing their best work. If we chop the parts that bring us the greatest joy, we’re more likely to crumble under the weight of the next big question and make the short-term, knee-jerk decision rather than think things through and figure out the best path forward.
More and more Millennials and Gen-Z workers are choosing not to pursue leadership trajectories, and they cite their own management’s lack of work-life balance as the cause of their waning interest. This disconnect (which I explore in more detail in episode 437, The Succession Gap and the Growing Value of Your Leadership Aspirations) has serious implications for the future of the C-suite. We need to lead by example and do our part to build a sustainable leadership culture that inspires and welcomes the next generation.
Whether you’re in the midst of a promotion and the subsequent freakout, tackled it long ago, or feel it coming, visit our Courage Community on Facebook or join us in our group on LinkedIn to share your experience.
Related Links from today’s episode:
Jodi’s podcast Women Taking the Lead
Jodi’s book Accomplished: How to Go from Dreaming to Doing
Jodi’s Leadership Operating System Inventory
Massachusetts Conference of Women
Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear
McKinsey’s Women in the Workplace Study
Academy of Management Journal Article
Bossed Up Episode 426, Women of Color in Leadership and Trauma at Work
Bossed Up Episode 437, The Succession Gap and the Growing Value of Your Leadership Aspirations
Bossed Up Episode 407, How to Delegate Without Feeling so Bad About It
My LinkedIn Learning Course, Coping With Your Impostor Syndrome To Build Your Career Confidence
Bossed Up Level Up Leadership Accelerator
DISCOVER HOW TO COPE WITH YOUR IMPOSTOR SYNDROME
AND BUILD UP YOUR CAREER CONFIDENCE
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[INTRO MUSIC IN]
EMILIE: Hey, and welcome to the Bossed Up podcast, episode 442. I'm your host, Emilie Aries, the founder and CEO of Bossed Up. And today I am so excited to be speaking with a really kindred spirit, someone who's in a very similar lane then bossed up. And that is Jodi Flynn, the CEO and founder of Women Taking the Lead. Women Taking the Lead is a leadership development company that works with individuals, allies, and organizations to close the gender parity gap by attracting, developing, and successfully promoting more women into senior levels of leadership. Doesn't that sound familiar? Jodi and I have a lot in common and so on today's episode, we're going to be digging into the freakout, for lack of a better word, that so many women leaders have on their rise to the top. So as you are navigating being promoted or being thrown into bigger and bigger arenas of leadership, if you're feeling totally freaked out, totally out of your depth, in over your head, doubting yourself, and not really sure how to productively channel that anxiety into the right focus to bring to your leadership work, today's episode is going to answer that.
But first, here's a little more about Jodi. She works through coaching, consulting, providing leadership development programs, and delivering keynotes. She's been featured in Entrepreneur and Forbes magazine, and she's the host of the nationally recognized Women Taking the Lead podcast, as well as an Amazon bestselling author with her book Accomplished: How to go from Dreaming to Doing. Jodi is a co-founder of the Maine Women's Conference and has spoken at the Massachusetts Conference for Women, the Women in Banking and Emerging Leaders conferences. Jodi, welcome to the Bossed Up podcast.
JODI: Emilie. I'm excited to be here. I'm thrilled and honored.
EMILIE: I feel like we're real kindred spirits, even though we just met. I was like, d*** Jodi's got 500 plus episodes of a podcast of your own, right? Focused on women in leadership. That is like game recognized game. Jodi, I'm impressed.
JODI: Absolutely. I felt the same way. Somebody else tipped me off and said, hey, you really need to talk to Emilie. And you were just lovely. When I reached out to you and I felt like in that first conversation, we absolutely clicked. And then when I, you know, was checking out your podcast and you were like, this is focused on women leaders within the workplace, I was like, yes, that's where I'm hanging out right now, too.
EMILIE: I love it. And you've been in business for quite a while, right? When did you start your business?
JODI: I started my business in the fall, late summer, fall of 2010. So going on almost 14 years now.
EMILIE: That's amazing. And that's women taking the lead. What inspired you to start working with women leaders?
JODI: What was interesting is, when I started my business, I wasn't narrowed in on just working with women. It was actually going to be caregivers. So the slant was towards women. But then what I found was, um, I wasn't a caregiver. I'm not a mom. And so when you're coaching and working with people, you do need to have some understanding, some experience of what they're going through. And although my heart was in the right place and people were excited about the work that I was doing, what really resonated was women who came up to me and they were like, alright, I don't have kids, or caregiving is not my issue. It's around who I am in my business. And I was like, I can work with you. And I was working with women and men. But I found that over time, because, you know, when you're new to coaching, you're still kind of figuring it out. Like, who do I love working with? What do I love talking about, and what problems do I love helping people with? And I just found myself more and more being drawn to the unique challenges that women have as leaders. Because at that time, 14 years ago, although some people were talking about it, there was almost this sense of like, oh, it isn't different. Like, training wasn't different, coaching wasn't different. Books written about business and leadership were written kind of from the perspective of, this applies to all leaders. And it didn't, it didn’t. I found that the women I was coaching, they had a unique set of challenges that the men I was coaching just weren't experiencing. There's some overlap, but in a Venn diagram, um, there were definitely some things that one or the other were not experiencing. And I'm just going to put it in the language that is true for me. I felt a spiritual calling to work with women because I just recognized that the world in general, although I focus in on the workplace and careers, the world needs more women in leadership. We need more gender parity, and we would not have the problems we have today if we had an equal number of women and men making decisions together.
EMILIE: Amen. Preach, Jodi. I'm here for it. No, I think it's, you know, it's so funny every business has its iterations, you know what I mean? And, um, it's great to see you really hone in on supporting women working. You know, I want to zoom in today on a challenge that we identified as common among the clients that we serve, which I think is very common among perhaps women listening to this podcast right now, which is on the rise while they're making that transition into a leadership position. Maybe it's a first time manager position. Maybe it's a first time director level or senior manager position. But when you are rising and increasing your visibility, maybe there are fewer women or fewer folks of color or just fewer folks who look like you around. At the level of seniority you all of a sudden find yourself in a lot of women we talk to kind of have a freakout, right? Kind of have a crisis of confidence. What does that often sound like when it's the coaching clients that you work with?
JODI: Oh, yeah. And I have to say, it's often in a different place for every woman, right. It doesn't always occur. So there might be some people who are like, no, when I took that promotion, I was good to go. I was excited. I was grooving. I was jamming. But I guarantee you there will be a level at which you go, oh, my goodness, what am I doing here? How did I end up here? It all sounded great when I was offered the promotion, but now I'm in it, and I'm freaking out. And so what it sounds like when I'm talking to. Because, uh, this will be in a discovery call that, uh, I will hear this, where they'll say things like, maybe they picked the wrong person or, oh, my god, I'm underwater. I can't keep up. My significant other is mad at me because I'm working all of the time. And those impostor syndrome messages of, like, maybe I shouldn't be here. Maybe they picked the wrong person. All of that starts to happen, but it is just this sense of, like, this doesn't feel good. This isn't what I wanted. And there is absolutely a foot on the brakes of any further advancement because sometimes women come to me in this state telling me they're already trying to groom me for the next promotion. It may not be this year, but the higher you get, the sooner you hear whether or not you're being prepared for the next senior level position. I was talking to someone yesterday their CEO is planning on retiring in three years. I'm like, so what's the succession plan? You're next in line. What's going on? She's like, no succession plan. I'm like, that is unusual. Better get going because there's a lot of things to figure out, but no matter where they are, it is also very common because they're very talented, they're capable, they're competent they were chosen for a reason. So they're already being talked to about the next move, and they're putting up all the stop signs and the brakes.
EMILIE: And I feel like it's a weird position to be in because one part of you is saying, I should be grateful. I should be thrilled to be here, you know? There are so many women I know who are so frustrated and halted and feel stalled and feel stuck. And maybe that was me just five years ago. I felt like I couldn't get here. And now I'm here, and I'm filled with regret and fear and anxiety, and I'm ready to burn the hell out because I'm working all the time. And it's sort of this feeling of shame on top of sadness or on top of disappointment that's like, I shouldn't be feeling the negative feelings that I'm feeling. And so that can just cause such a spiral, doesn't it?
JODI: Absolutely. In my own experience, I also, when taking a big promotion, had moved out of state by myself. Right? So I was, like, in a new home away from family. It was a great opportunity, but a week or so in, I was throwing up before going to work. And between you and me Emilie, because we do what we do, right? We get it done. I would still brush my teeth, take a shower, get dressed, go to work, and just deal with whatever was coming at me. And then the next morning, also filled with dread, like, oh, my god, how am I going to get through today? And what have I done to my life, right? Because I can't just turn around and go home. I'm in it. Although I will say I was committed, but I was freaking out. I was like, am I ready for this? Am I going to totally mess this up? So, it's very common.
EMILIE: Yeah. And I think it's so important to just say, like, that is the feeling of being on your growth edge. Right? Right. If you don't feel that every now and then, you're probably not pushing yourself, you're probably not on your growth edge, or you have egomaniacal tendencies, right? Where you think you can do no wrong, so it doesn't feel very good when you're in it. But looking back at moments in my career where I've, um, been like, oh, my god, I'm totally in over my head. I just talked my way here. They have no idea that I've, as Maya Angelou would say, like, run a game on them all. You know what I mean? And so once you're in that arena, you feel like, oh, my gosh, I'm way in over my head. How do we help those folks and predominantly women shift their perspective of how they're providing value in a more senior leadership role? Because that's really what this is about, right? It's like, overworking and being in the weeds in every single detail. And being micromanaging is not anyone's goal as a leader, but often happens because of anxiety and a desire to control. Right?
JODI: Yes, 100%. And I saw that in myself, too. When I was stressed out, I would get in the weeds of things because I felt in control in that place. But that's a destructive behavior when you're now leading a team of people because you're sending unconscious messages that I don't trust you, or I think I can do it better. And we don't want to disempower our teams, and I want to go back and say, we definitely don't want anyone in the position where you're throwing up before you go to work every day. But, yes, you want to push your edge, right. That is a feeling of being alive, uh, of, like, I don't know. I'm going for it, but I don't know. And it's a dual thing. I will say initially where I start with my clients is, where are you in terms of what you think about yourself and your identity? Right? Did you envision yourself in this role? Do you have a sense of, yes, they picked the right person. Like, I was clearly the right choice for this, or I can do this. That identity of whether you are now a supervisor or a director or a VP, have you owned that? That is who you are. Because James Clear, when he wrote Atomic Habits, there was a chapter in his book that really resonated with me when he said, we can make behavior changes, not when we say, like, for instance, I want to start exercising or I want to start running. Like, it's easier to make the change when you take on and embrace, I am a runner. So it's that identity piece that makes everything else that much easier. So if you have been promoted to director, like, really taking on, I am a director. Because if you're sitting in those meetings with directors, wondering why the heck you're in that room, because you don't feel like you belong, it might be in your own head.
EMILIE: Right. And you got to be in your own corner, right?
JODI: Absolutely.
EMILIE: Like, you've got to be in your own corner. I like this idea also, of personifying that identity sometimes, because even Beyonce has Sasha Fierce, her alter ego, right? Who's like, she doesn't want to be Beyonce on stage in a bodysuit, you know, twerking is like, oh, my gosh, sometimes she feels like she can't do this, but Sasha Fierce can do this. And so it's like, look, we have our inner critic, and we can have our inner boss identity, who's saying, of course you belong here, and here's why. And maybe figuring out how do we script the narrative or like, give some lines to that inner Sasha Fierce within each of us so that we can counterbalance the love.
JODI: How you put that? Like, what is your inner boss identity? Like, what's the name? Do you have a nickname? What's the script? That sort of thing. Being genuine to this is a part of yourself, because Beyonce will say, Sasha Fierce is a part of her. It's just, she really embodies that because it takes something to be on stage and be in front of all of those people. It's just like, um, for you and I, when we do public speaking, there is an additional layer of your identity that you really own and embrace when you're up there, because you're not that way in your private life, with your family. It's just a component of you that you really bring to the forefront. So I love where we're going with this, Emilie. So I would say for those of you who have been promoted, and you're freaking out, like, what is that part of you that you can bring to the forefront that's got this. That really can do this?
EMILIE: Right? And that's like, the inner work first?
JODI: Yes, inner work first. And then to your question, the value that you bring, this is a perspective change that is really necessary as you rise through the levels of leadership. So if you are taking on more people, and I don't mean direct reports, right? Because we don't want to be overwhelmed there. But just, like, under the people who report directly to you and the people who then report directly to them, the more people you have and the more responsibility you have, the more you have to step away from the frontline work and doing all of the things and really leaning into your people and delegating and allowing them to do their best work. And there's a, uh, perspective that can make this easier, because what I find common with women is they want to protect their teams. If they feel overwhelmed, we automatically project our experience onto other people, unless we're being conscious of it, unless we're being aware of it. It just happens. If we're in our own world and we're in autopilot. If we're overwhelmed, we automatically assume everyone else must be overwhelmed as well, unless they're just loafing around, and then we're just annoyed with them. But that's not usually the case. So what happens is, as women, if we're in that mode, what we start doing is, I don't want to delegate because my team's already so busy. They're so busy. And with my clients, whenever I challenge that perception of reality by saying, have you asked them or have you investigated what's keeping them busy? Are they saying they're busy, or what is it that is going on? And have you asked them, could you take on more work? It's amazing how many times they come back and go, oh, my gosh, my team feels like I'm doing too much and that I'm hoarding the work and that they're more than willing to take on more because they see that I'm getting overwhelmed. This is another thing that leaders often don't realize, is that when they are overwhelmed and super busy, they freak out their people.
EMILIE: Totally, and their people feel like they're not focused on the things that they should be focused on, which are different than doing all the work.
JODI: Doing all of the work. Yes.
EMILIE: There's some really good evidence in the Academy of Management Journal back in 2018 about pretty significant gender differences in delegation. Women are less willing to delegate. And even when they reframe delegation as more of a communal act, instead of this authoritarian action of just dumping work onto others, those gender differences start to close a little bit. But women experience more guilt when delegating, and that can really be a barrier.
JODI: Yes. And I love that you brought that up, Emilie, because that is the solution. And what I give to my clients to consider is, you're no longer the person who's getting the work done. You're no longer the fixer, right? Because a lot of us identify as being the fixer. People bring problems to me, and I fix them. You are now developing future leaders. That's your job. Your job is to develop your people, and you can't do that if they're not given a chance to do the work. So you have to delegate those tasks. I can't tell you how many women I've talked to where they've been promoted, and then they admit they don't want to admit it, but they admit it guiltily that they're still holding on to responsibilities from their former position.
EMILIE: It's our comfort zone. You know what I mean? I want to feel productive. Therefore, I need some tasks to cross off my to do list. And it's like, hoarding all those tasks is not helping you. But oftentimes women in our Level Up leadership accelerator will admit at the start of our program, like, I don't really know what else I should be doing. I don't know what it looks like to be a visionary. I don't know what it looks like to be focused on strategy. I don't know what it looks like to be focused on developing others, because rarely is that transition made explicit. Right? It's just not very well communicated.
JODI: It's not. And in my own experience, when I was promoted to be a junior executive, I can't remember how long it took, but it was within the first couple of months. My boss was at my door one day and she just looked at me and I looked back at her and I was like, what? She said, get out of the queue. Like, there was a queue that where my team was, one of my teams was working in and I was helping them, because I know how to do the work, and I saw that they were really busy, so I thought, I'll jump in, I'll take care of some of these things. And she caught it. And I was like, I want to help. Like, what, it was like, what am I supposed to do? Because I was caught up on everything else. And she's like, no, that is not your job anymore. Your job is to trust your team, let them know you're here and you will get resources for them if they need resources, but you are no longer allowed to jump in and help and do the work. And I was like, what is it you want me to do? And she's like, I want you walking around the building and building relationships with people who are in other divisions, in other departments, all different levels, and just be friendly. I was like, you want me to spend half my day just building relationships, right? And as, like, a high achiever and a doer, my brain exploded. I'm like, this makes no sense to me at all. And she explained, she said, you will need them. You will need them at some point, and probably some point soon, there will be a time you'll need to collaborate on an initiative or your team will need help. And instead of just getting help from you, you can reach out to other divisions to say, could some people, more than one help out? And that's exactly what happened.
EMILIE: Oh, interesting.
JODI: Yeah, it took a while for me to get used to, like, hey, I'm dropping by to chat and this is work in air quotes.
EMILIE: Well, I can just hear those folks tuning in right now whose brains are currently exploding like yours was back in the day, because they're like, this is what managers do. This is what directors do, this is what executives do. And kind of scoffing a little bit. And to be clear, we're not saying that we are better than frontline work. We're not above frontline work. But what we are saying is that senior leaders have a duty, have an obligation to be focused elsewhere, right. To be able to envision the future by keeping a pulse on the horizon line and seeing what's out there, what's happening across the enterprise, what opportunities for synergy might exist, and that, that provides an immense strategic value, not only to your department and the folks who you're responsible for, but also to the whole organization. And that looks really different than like, producing more widgets or just getting more tasks done on your to do list, right?
JODI: 100%. You multiply. You're in a position where you can multiply the value you bring, not only just to your team, because my team felt the benefits of it, but to other divisions as well. And part of it is also being a connector, too. I was talking recently with a client who said that in her company, she went to a conference, and another woman who works in her company, but a completely different division, went to the conference. They happened to chat while they were there, and this woman, a year later, reached out to her and she said, hey, we are in trouble. We need a scrum master in order to get this project off the ground. We can't find anybody. We're not even able to hire anyone. Is there any chance you have a scrum master in your division? And she was like, yeah, this is their name, here's their email. And then that person was able to be reassigned to this group for a short while. They got their project off, like, this is what we're talking about. The more people you connect with, the more you can also reach out for resources, collaboration, and it's a skill that's so needed and makes your life easier. Like, imagine if instead of trying to go it alone and fix all the problems yourself, you now reach out to your network. How much more quickly could you get things done, the time saved?
EMILIE: And it also just reminds me of how creative leadership is as a practice. Like, if you pride yourself on being a phenomenal marketer and you miss the creativity of copywriting and campaign planning and strategizing multichannel marketing campaigns, like, if you're now all of a sudden a senior manager or director level. There's a whole new skill set that also involves a hell of a lot of creativity, which is creatively resourcing strategies across an enterprise through those relationships. And it is a very dynamic but totally different skill set, right?
JODI: Yes, it's totally different, but not the way you described it. I was like, oh, I wish I was that person at that level, right? That, like, okay, there's this blank canvas almost like, what are we going to do differently this year? How are we going to, instead of just impacting one department or one division, being able to impact the whole company. And it's really about a little bit of letting go. Just like when you go from grammar school to junior high, junior high to high school, high school to college, you got to let go of some things to take on more challenges. But you will discover all new parts of yourself, you know, aspects and skills and talents and abilities that you weren't aware of before. And yes, creativity will still be needed, but you'll have to channel it a little bit different, right? It'll look more strategic and visionary, right? And you do. The higher you go, the more you have to be. Not that you're out of touch with what's going on with the work. You definitely want to know what's happening, but you also have to free up time and free up, uh, mental bandwidth to be able to think about where are we going? How are we going to get there? How do we utilize our resources the best, right. And then the value you're bringing to the people and to the company, it's just exponential.
EMILIE: So when it comes to women who are listening in and thinking, I theoretically am on board. Okay, I recognize that I'm probably holding on too much, not delegating enough. Your advice thus far on how to adapt to new levels of leadership looks like start, you know, with the inner work, making sure your mindset is right. Lean into relationship building. I heard that loud and clear. Free up some mental resources and time to devote to visionary and strategic leadership, is there anything else that you would say to help women who recognize that they need to make a shift actually start to make that shift happen?
JODI: You know, Emilie, what popped into my head is what we didn't mention, and it's so basic, and it's where, right after assessments and discovery, I go with my clients, is, how are you taking care of yourself, so that you're bringing your best self forward? Because one of the issues that when a woman comes to me, she's overwhelmed, she's been promoted, she's been bogged down. What typically has happened is she will say, oh, I don't have time to take care of myself anymore. I don't have time for my hobbies. I barely have time for my family and my social life. Like, all of the things she started sacrificing because she hasn't been delegating the work and has been super overwhelmed and not believing in herself. And it's so important to get back there and not, like, just in a bubble bath, manicure, kind of way. But what are all of the things that feed your soul and are necessary for you to bring your best self forward? Because when we are depleted, tired, overwhelmed, we are not in, uh, the best place to deal with stress or challenges and things that your best self would be like, okay, yes, this is a challenge, but we'll figure it out. Your overwhelmed self will just crumple, right? And you'll find yourself. And that's where, when we get completely depleted and we're like, you know what? I need to take a mental health day. I need to check out for a while, or I'm just exhausted, and I'm going to have to cancel plans tonight or this weekend because I need to recover. So, it's so important, even if it's five minutes, ten minutes a day, to start infusing those things that feed your soul and rejuvenate you back into your day.
EMILIE: I love that in such a fundamental way. Just, like, fuel your brain, right? If all of a sudden you have a brand new creative challenge before you, that is a senior leadership role. The answer is not to push through and hustle hard. It's like, am I eating right? Am I exercising? Is my brain full of stress hormones right now? Because it's not going to operate at its optimal level if that's the case. Like, I need to be training for this role like an athlete. And so many of us get the different message that you just got to hustle hard and work hard and push through.
JODI: Yeah, pushing, hustling. If you're getting those messages, like, both of us are making a face. Ugh.
EMILIE: We are.
JODI: Especially for women, that doesn't work. Like, collaboration works better for women than hustle or pushing. I don't even know many men where they can sustain that type of energy or mentality.
EMILIE: Well, I'm thinking, like, Wolf of Wall Street comes to mind, right? And I'm just like, Gary V. Wolf of Wall Street, right? That whole machismo, coked out culture of the 1980s. Wall street, right? That is nothing to aspire to. No one was doing their best mental work then, and like, that is not what we want to aim for, to your earlier point, more women and more gender parity in the world would make for better outcomes and probably more ethical outcomes at that, right?
JODI: 100%. And like, you want to think about the times where you've pushed, push, uh, push, pushed through to get to the finish line. You may have gotten to the finish line, but when you look back, how many relationships have been destroyed, or maybe not destroyed, but need repair? How many people do you need to apologize to? How long of a vacation do you need to take in order to recover and get back to yourself? Pushing will get you over the line. It's just, do you want to deal with the carnage that's going to be there on the other side, rather than, like you said, Emilie is taking a step back, feeding your brain, taking some space, thinking things through, being strategic, utilizing the resources and the people who are around you, so that you can cross that finish line in a healthy, happy, productive state. And your team appreciates it as well.
EMILIE: There was an episode I did a couple months ago now with Marisol Erlacher called Women of Color in Leadership and Trauma at Work. Sorry, her name is Marisol Solarte-Erlacher. And she know, at what cost did you get here? At what cost did you get through that? And it's like, physical, emotional, psychological, relational, like, the carnage left behind in the wake of our achievement can sometimes be insurmountable. And it's really about asking yourself, am I willing to put myself through something full on traumatic for success that looks successful on paper, and that cannot be how we get to the finish line. I agree. No.
JODI: No, or to the next level, right? Because this is the reason why most women are, like, put on the brakes. Let's just stay here. This is good because they don't feel like they'd be capable and there would be more carnage.
EMILIE: Well, there's a new ambition gap between men and women, and just a growing succession gap among all people who are saying, never mind, no, thanks. I don't really want to be the boss. And that's troubling for our succession planning goals, right. To go back to your earlier point, I did an episode just a couple of weeks ago, episode 437, about the growing succession gap, which is, like, more and more people are, like, opting out of that climbing the ladder option. So making it sustainable as the prerequisite for continued growth is such a good way of flipping that narrative.
JODI: One of the things that jumped out at me from McKinsey's, it was their 2002 Women in the Workplace Study. They cited that two thirds of women under 30, right. The future of leadership. Two thirds said they would be more interested in advancing if they saw senior leaders with the work life balance that they wanted. So for those of you women who are over 30 and in those senior leadership positions, what are you modeling for the women who are coming after you? Now This is the thing. Gallup and McKinsey have also identified that women are still ambitious. They still do want to advance in their careers. They want to have a greater impact and all of that, but they've got concerns, and we need to address those.
EMILIE: Yeah, totally. And frankly, I think millennial dads give me a lot of hope, too, because we're seeing the work life balance, demand and concern really peaking for millennial caregivers across the gender spectrum right now. So you and I could talk all day.
JODI: I know. I do want to say this one last thing, because I think sometimes when people think like, wow, if we're like, removing obstacles for women to rise into senior leadership, those things are going to hurt men. Actually, no, they help men because the things that help women, help men. So having more flexibility, like having benefits and health care packages that allow for paternity leave as well as maternity leave, these are things that, like you said, millennials want and we all benefit from, right? It was millennials who pushed for more work from home. And thank goodness for that, because when the pandemic hit, a lot of companies were like, we've already been thinking about this, so let's just roll out the plan that we hadn't approved yet.
EMILIE: Well, one last question for you. On your website, you've got an assessment that anyone can take about understanding your leadership operating system, um, and whether or not it needs a little systems upgrade. For someone who's transitioning into a leadership role, what is that and how might it be relevant for them?
JODI: Yeah, it's an inventory where you self assess on 25 different leadership skills and they relate to leading yourself. We talked a lot about that. Leading others, communication, influence, and self care. Like, how are you doing in that area as well, so that you can see at a glance, okay, what are my strengths? What am I doing really good at? Where can I lean in and leverage the areas I'm doing well, and where are the areas of opportunity for me? And I think sometimes when people are in a place of, like, tell me what to do, give me some guidance, tell me what I should be working on. This could be a good place to go because depending on your workplace, some of them are so good at this, at really developing their talent and giving their employees opportunities to develop themselves, but some are not. They just don't have the resources for it, or they're not believing in it yet. And so this is a free inventory that anyone can take where they can identify like, okay, where can I grow so that I'm feeling more confident and more competent, right? Because when we lack confidence, we start to feel incompetent as well. So things we can work on so we can get back to that place. Because when we feel good as a leader, we do well, right? We perform well.
EMILIE: Where can our listeners get that access to that inventory and learn more about you and all you have to offer?
JODI: Yeah, my hub is womentakingthelead.com, and women is plural.
EMILIE: Okay. Love that. And what's the name of your podcast, too, since they're listening to a podcast right now?
JODI: Yeah, same name. It's the Women Taking the Lead podcast. You can look that up in any app that you're on or on the website. And, uh, my favorite platform to connect with people is so. And you can easily find me on LinkedIn because I'm very active. So if you search for Jodi Flynn.
EMILIE: You are a top leadership development voice on LinkedIn. I saw that fancy badge. Congratulations.
JODI: My new badge.
EMILIE: Good for you. We'll drop all those links in today's show notes. Jodi, thank you so much for joining me today.
JODI: Emilie, it was my pleasure. And I can't wait to have you on Women Taking the Lead as well.
EMILIE: For links to all the great resources Jodi and I mentioned in today's conversation, head to bossedup.org/episode442. That's bossedup.org/episode442. You'll also find a fully written out and easily shareable blog post, as well as a full transcript of today's conversation.
Now, I want to hear from you. If you are a woman on the rise who may or may not be freaking out as you ascend to the top of your career. How's it going? Are you experiencing any of this anxiety and freak out or burnout? And if so, does any of the advice that Jodi and I talked through today, resonate with you? How might you get out of the weeds and free yourself to focus on relationship building, envisioning, and strategic level thinking so that you can bring an even greater and more influential, uh, as Jodi might say, exponential value to your organization? Let's keep the conversation going, as always, in the Bossed Up Courage Community on Facebook, or in our Bossed Up group on LinkedIn.
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And until next time, let's keep bossin’ in pursuit of our purpose. And together let's lift as we climb.
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