Grief in the Workplace: Support, Empathy, and Healing
Episode 470 | Host: Emilie Aries | Guest: Krista St-Germain
How to support yourself or someone navigating grief—in both work and life.
We all experience grief. The passing of loved ones, as well as the loss of relationships, jobs, and expectations for our future, can heavily impact our lives. We might default to assuming the place for grief is in the home, but the truth is that a loss permeates every aspect of our lives, sometimes for years or even decades, and it certainly crosses into the workplace.
Krista St-Germain experienced a devastating loss in 2016 when her husband was killed by an impaired driver. The event propelled her into grief, then therapy, and ultimately deep into researching the cognitive science behind post-traumatic growth.
Today, she is a Master Certified Life Coach, the founder of the Mom Goes On group coaching program, and the host of the podcast Widowed Mom. She shares her hard-won wisdom on what we should know about grief and how to navigate it in the workplace, both for ourselves and in support of others.
Our society misunderstands grief
When you ask most people what they know about mourning loss, what usually comes to mind is the Five Stages of Grief, as popularized by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross’s 1969 book On Death and Dying. Though Kubler-Ross was simply sharing what she observed in hospice patients and offering one take on grief, her theory embedded itself in our social consciousness to the exclusion of any other.
The problem with adhering too tightly to the Five Stages model is that people misunderstand the intention. They see them as a prescriptive order: you will grieve from one stage to the next until you reach the end, and then, voila, you’re done grieving! This is neither what Kubler-Ross intended nor what actually happens in most experiences of grief. Rather than labeling whatever we feel as “normal,” which it most likely is, we try to label our emotions as denial or anger or bargaining and worry we aren’t “doing it right” if we don’t experience one of them.
What is the “end goal” of grieving?
When you consider how we go through our working lives, it’s clear why following a set of five stages of grief appeals to so many people. When we experience a loss, we are untethered and, as Krista points out, a list of boxes to check can feel like a lifeline. So much of our society revolves around deliverables and productivity; we can quickly feel useless when we stop contributing in the same way as we used to. We might feel the need to get back to peak form as quickly as we can. As a high-achieving woman, I know this as well as anyone: it is so important to detach our self-worth from our productivity, especially in times of upheaval.
Society also has a tendency to apply a black-or-white lens to some ways people grieve. Avoidance, for instance, is sometimes seen as a “bad” way to deal with grief, but Krista argues that it’s integral! She is partial to the Dual Process Model, which recommends striking a balance between the activities we do that are related to the loss, such as making funeral arrangements or selling a home, and activities that have nothing to do with it.
Doing the latter—things like bowling, watching Netflix, going out with friends—can be very healthy “avoidance” measures that help us heal. Exclusively remaining mired in agonizing grief, reliving memories over and over doesn’t facilitate healing, but nor does spending every minute pointedly refusing to acknowledge what has happened.
The truth about healing over time
Then there’s the awful old adage, “Time heals all wounds.” Krista acknowledges that she used to completely disregard this statement, arguing that time has nothing to do with it, but the truth is more nuanced. Certainly, the time it takes to feel “better” is unique to each person, but time does play a specific neurobiological part in the grieving process.
Our brains learn to expect the reappearance of a certain person. This is why we don’t panic about a spouse or a child every moment they’re out of our sight. Our brain has learned we will see our daughter at dinner, or our mother when we fly to Houston, or our spouse when the garage door opens at 5. When someone dies, all these hardwired assumptions are proven false, which is why it can be so disorienting to adjust to them being gone. Over time, though, the brain begins to create new expectations based on the new reality where that person is not there, and this helps create new neural pathways in our minds that contribute to our healing.
What is post-traumatic growth?
Krista also spends time guiding clients through the concept of post-traumatic growth, a term that stems from research done in the 90s, which discovered that the degree to which quality of life returns after a trauma varies widely. Some people struggle to return eventually to their previous baseline, others never return to that quality of life, and others actually exceed their pre-trauma happiness.
It can feel heartless to believe that life will actually get better after a loss. Krista stresses, though, that this fact doesn’t mean you don’t love that person or are glad they died. Sometimes, this growth comes from realizing how precious life is and choosing to show up differently going forward. Some people experience spiritual changes; others, like Krista, reconsider their career trajectory and feel connected to a bigger purpose.
Krista wants you to understand that though it may take time, you can experience grief as both a horrible loss and a liberating opportunity.
Supporting a coworker in grief
Like all the other ways to grieve, the “right” time to go back to work is unique to each person. When you are on the outside watching a grieving coworker return to the office, it’s important to extend grace—both to them for their choices and any unexpected reactions, and to yourself when you say the wrong thing or if what you think is the right thing is misconstrued.
Krista explains that we must consider what we’re truly trying to achieve with the words we’re about to offer. Often, when we say something minimizing, such as “At least you had this time with them,” we aren’t saying it to comfort the other person but to alleviate our own discomfort over their sadness. If we can make them a little happier, then we won’t be uncomfortable—and that’s a terrible base from which to express sympathy.
In her own experience, Krista cherished the moments when her coworkers, who had worked with her husband even longer than with her, told stories about him or referenced a joke he would have made. You aren’t going to suddenly remind them of their loss, Krista points out—they’re remembering it every moment. So, interactions like this show them they aren’t going through this grief alone; others are thinking of their loved one too.
In our conversation, Krista and I explore many facets of grief, from both personal and workplace perspectives. Listen to the full episode to hear even more about Krista’s relatable, healing approach to coming through grief.
Then, weigh in! Visit the Courage Community on Facebook or join us in our group on LinkedIn to share how grief has shown up in your life, or how you have helped others navigate it. Which of Krista’s insights opened your eyes?
Related links from today’s episode:
Learn more about Krista’s work
Connect with Krista on Facebook
The Grieving Brain by Mary-Frances O’Connor
Report from the Death Studies Journal on the Dual Process Model
Brené Brown - Silver Linings Clip
Episode 468: Disrupting Elder Care: We Need To Talk More About Working Daughters
LEVEL UP: a Leadership Accelerator for Women on the Rise
Learn to LEVEL UP your leadership empathy:
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[INTRO MUSIC IN]
EMILIE: Hey, and welcome to the Bossed Up podcast, episode 470. I'm your host, Emilie Aries, the Founder and CEO of Bossed Up. I am a little raspy voiced today, so you'll have to forgive me.
[INTRO MUSIC ENDS]
I am recuperating from COVID. My whole household is. It is gross and highly not recommended, especially at seven months pregnant at the time of this recording. So bear with me. My voice is definitely going to be whack this entire episode, but don't let that detract from the really interesting guest I'm excited to bring you today.
Today we're talking all about grief, which, after 2020 and this very pandemic that I'm currently still experiencing, clearly, I think is so relevant for so many of us, whether we've lost loved ones ourselves, due to COVID or anything else, really, or we've just lost the sense of what could have been over the past four years. This episode is really eye opening in terms of thinking about grief, not only in the workplace and how we can be good colleagues to those who are grieving in work, but also grief in general, like, what that looks like in your life.
Joining me to break all this down is Krista St-Germain, a master certified life coach, post-traumatic growth, and grief expert, widow, mom, and host of The Widowed Mom podcast. When her husband was killed by a drunk driver in 2016, Krista's life was completely and unexpectedly flipped upside down. After therapy helped her uncurl from the fetal position, Krista discovered life coaching, post-traumatic growth and learned the tools she needed to move forward and create a future she could get excited about. Now she coaches and teaches other widows so they can love life again, too. Krista's been featured online and in print in Psychology Today, Psych Central, Bustle, Medium, and lots of other outlets. And now I'm delighted to add the Bossed Up podcast to the list as well. Krista, welcome to the Bossed Up podcast.
KRISTA: Thank you for having me, Emilie.
EMILIE: So, first big question for you is why should we even have a discussion around grief on a podcast about workplace issues, like, what's led you to this work, and why should we even discuss grief at work?
KRISTA: Yeah, my whole life example is a great reason to have conversations like this. I'll tell you what I mean. So what led me to this work was that when I was 40 and on a real high in my life, because I had been through a divorce with my first husband, had not ended well, and I had met someone, married, and just felt like the best days were ahead of me, my career was going well. Just everything. Like, it was just going so amazingly well.
And then we were coming back from a trip we'd driven separately. I had a flat tire pulled over on the side of the road. Daylight had lights fully on, and a driver, who we later found had both drugs and alcohol in his system, hit the back of my husband's car. He was in the trunk trying to get access to the spare tire so he could change the tire. And so he ended up, you know, being trapped between the two cars. I was kind of standing on the side of the road, so, fortunately, I was okay, but within, you know, 24 hours, and he made it to the hospital, but they couldn't save him. Within 24 hours, my whole life just completely flipped upside down. And what I very quickly learned was that I didn't know much about grief, and what I did know was actually pretty outdated and unhelpful.
And so conversations like this, I'm always so excited when somebody wants to talk about grief, because if I can give people accurate information that will actually help them, whether they want to support themselves or they're trying to support someone else, I know that we can make people's experience of grief easier. Right? And so. And it starts with conversations like this.
EMILIE: Yeah. Which are hard to have because we're all avoiding it. Right? Like, we recently had an episode that I just recorded about, about aging and elder care, and my guest Liz O'Donnell said, well, part of the reason we don't talk about elder care is because we don't like talking about death and dying, and we don't, you know, these are difficult topics to navigate.
So I do think it's so important to pull back the veil, not to be too on the nose here, but to really, you know, pull back the curtain on these kinds of topics and talk about uncomfortable things before, ideally, they're forced upon us.
KRISTA: Yeah. And I think to some extent, it's kind of like there's a monster under the bed, you know? And if we shine a flashlight under there, we see that it's maybe not quite the monster that we thought it was. And so, again, conversations like this are like shining the light under the bed.
EMILIE: Absolutely. And everyone's life will be touched by grief if it hasn't already. Right?
KRISTA: Exactly. And it's not just bereavement. Right? Bereavement is when you, when someone dies. But I like to think about grief in more broad terms. It's the natural human response to a perceived loss. And perceived loss can be so many things of which bereavement is a subset.
EMILIE: Interesting. So let's talk about some of the myths around grief, because you mentioned that when you were navigating your own grieving process, that you ran into some beliefs that you held about grief that weren't helpful or true. You know, one of the most popular things that comes to mind right away is the five stages of grief. So is that helpful? Is that outdated? What are some of the myths around grief that we should debunk?
KRISTA: Yeah, it's always interesting, because when I ask people what they know about grief, and if I specifically say, have you heard of the five stages? Usually every hand will go up. But then if I ask anyone if they know of any other grief theory, nobody can tell me anything but the five stages, which, I mean, in some ways, you know, the five stages of grief in its day was really important work because nobody was having conversations.
And so Elisabeth Kübler-Ross came along and started studying hospice patients, essentially, right? She was studying people who were coming to terms with a terminal diagnosis. And she wrote a book called On Death and Dying. And that was in 1969, by the way, was a long time ago. And what she was really doing was describing what she was noticing anecdotally, right. Which is that people would go through this period of denial, and then they would get angry, and then they would bargain, and then they would get depressed, and then ultimately, they would accept their diagnosis.
And so that's just what she was noticing, but nobody was talking about it. And so she started a very valuable conversation. Then she took that work and then wrote a book called On Grief And Grieving, where she took the five stages, and then made it applicable to the grief experience.
And it's almost like we just stopped there. Even though if you're in the world of grief, it didn't. Right? Lots of other people. There's lots of other theories and lots of other approaches, and somehow the five stages just caught on in our popular culture, and it seems to be the only one people know. And when doctors go to medical school, it's the one they learn about. And it just really is the, the lens that people tend to see grief through.
And it is unfortunate now, because most of us don't really resonate with, you know, our lived experience matching up to any sort of stages, let alone those five. But, yeah, I see it everywhere. That was one of the things that really I expected, right. It's like, okay, this numb feeling must be denial. Well, not really. Am I angry enough? I don't know. I don't feel very angry. Does that mean I'm doing grief wrong, right?
She never meant for it to be formulaic. She never meant for it to be staged. She never meant for people to take this very human experience and reduce it to, you know, something that is prescriptive, but that kind of is what we've done. And to some extent, that makes sense because wouldn't it be nice if there was just five stages? You know, wouldn't it be nice if there was a formula…
EMILIE: So tidy.
KRISTA: …yeah, it's so tidy. And we would all love that if there was just some, some guaranteed thing that all we had to do was go through five stages…
EMILIE: And so linear.
KRISTA: …and so linear. Right? But she didn't, she didn't mean it to be that way and that, that's how we've taken it. And also, I think it's really important to understand, too, that she didn't mean to say that grief ends. She didn't mean to say that acceptance is some place where we end up and that the goal is to get there and that once we get there, somehow we've moved on or we're better or, you know?
EMILIE: Yeah. And I think there is, unfortunately, because of that, a popular culture that expects people to move on.
KRISTA: Oh, yeah.
EMILIE: Right? Or maybe, you know, we just feel like failures if we don't feel like we're moving on, you know? So what would you say to someone who's listening to this, who's like, yeah, I'm actively grieving a loss. You know, whether it's a loss of a person in my life, or a loss of an opportunity, or a loss of a lifestyle that I thought I had access to, you know, like, what should they know about how to navigate grief?
KRISTA: Yeah. Well, first, I think it's worth just normalizing the experience that most of us do have where we do think that there's some end, or somewhere we're supposed to get to. It is common that people think time heals or that they should be in a particular place based on the amount of time that's passed. And it makes a lot of sense given what we've been taught about grief or maybe more importantly, what we haven't been taught about grief.
And also, it makes sense because we do live in a culture that tends to value productivity. Right? And especially in a work environment where we want to be seen as valuable. Right? Our livelihood depends on it. And so if we associate our value with productivity, then of course, we want to get back to it and put it in the rear view. And so I think we just want to have a lot of compassion for how we ended up here and why we might see the world in that way.
EMILIE: Well, before you move on, if I can jump in, because I think so many high achieving women like me listen to this podcast, and it's like we're doing this to ourselves. Like, when we feel like, kind of gross at the end of a day or a week, we're like, I'm currently getting over a cold, right? And I have not been as productive as I normally am this week. And, you know, sometimes the shame and the blame comes from within.
You know, we have to be the ones to stop and make sure that it's not just society's expectations on our value. It's our own expectations of what makes me a valuable member of my household or my team at work, or my community. It's like, not this week. This week is about resting and healing and, you know, not, and detaching my self worth from my achievement and giving myself some grace potentially in grief for a really long time. You know what I mean?
KRISTA: Absolutely, yeah. And I think it's kind of a chicken and egg thing, right? I mean, it kind of does. It's like we sense it in the external environment, whether it's implicit or explicit, and then we internalize it, and then it becomes a narrative that we, you know, hold ourselves to. And for sure, I did this in grief.
And I remember thinking, if somebody could just give me the book, right? If somebody could just give me the instructions, like, I'm gonna do this. Like, you know, I had this very proving energy of, like. Cause I was literally on the high achiever list at work. Like, you know, like that. That was my. I totally relate to what you said. That's how I identified, and it was like, I'm gonna show them. People are just gonna be so impressed with how I handle this.
And there was this kind of internal thing that I was doing that I think a lot of us do, which is something so awful has happened, and we don't want to feel powerless. Most humans don't particularly love feeling powerless. And so it's like a little power grab that we do where we kind of try to prove to ourselves and to others that, like, we can handle it and we're strong, we can get back to work. And, yeah, sometimes that, that has us going back to work maybe sooner than we were ready or, you know, shoving what's really happening kind of down in attempt to prove, and, you know, that may work for the short term, but doesn't usually work for the long term.
EMILIE: Oh, that is a good call out. So what can we do instead? What does it actually look like to take care of yourself in grief when your instinct might be to avoid, and to shove, and to ignore?
KRISTA: Yeah. So, first of all, I don't think that we want to say that ignoring is bad. Like, we don't want to label it and call it a binary when it really isn't. One of my favorite grief theories is called the Dual Process Model. And actually, what it teaches. Teaches is that there is value in avoidance in some ways.
So it essentially divides things up into two buckets. So it says, like, there's a bucket of activities that are related to the loss, right. So, you know, dealing with the logistics of the loss and feeling the feelings around the loss, and, you know, having emotions about it, like, loss related. And then there's actually restorative activities which have nothing to do with the loss. So, can I distract myself? Like a Netflix binge, you know, hobbies, time with friends. Right? Things that aren't related to the loss. And dual process model says intentionally go back and forth. Like, that's where the healing is found, is in the oscillation, right?
So sometimes what happens is we're like, oh, I can't avoid this. And so I must feel all my feelings. And if, you know, if I notice I'm happy, or if I notice, you know, I'm not thinking about what has happened, then I'm doing it wrong. Not true. Right? Actually, it's good to take a break from thinking about it. It's good to do other things. It's good to laugh. It's good to distract. And, you know, it is okay to have a Netflix binge or whatever, whatever works for you. We want to go back and forth. So I love that model because I think it's so generous, and it kind of meets us where we are, you know?
EMILIE: I do love that because it's basically saying, it's not a binary, right? Like, you can do both, and both can be true, and both opposite feelings can be present in your single day. I saw someone, a creator, on Instagram, who said when speaking to grief, you never know what's going to make you feel better. So try everything.
KRISTA: Oh, I love that.
EMILIE: And I thought, wow, that is such good advice. It's like, if this is your first time taking a paint and sip class, by all means, try it. You know, like, picking up a new dance hobby, go for it. And that sort of speaks to your dual process model. It's like, whatever that ulterior path looks like beyond dealing with the grief diversify it.
KRISTA: Yeah. And then I think we also just really want to consider, you know, challenging the whole myth of time healing. That's pretty pervasive one, too. But I do think it's a little more nuanced. And then I used to just say, time doesn't do anything, you know, but sit there. It's just a construct, but really it's a little more nuanced. So, you know, by itself, we want to be cognizant of what we're doing as time passes, right? Avoidance and just simply letting time pass is not going to get us where we want to get. But also the relearning what the brain is doing as time is passing only happens because we allow time to pass. Right?
So if you, and what I mean by that, we think about what's happening with the brain, right? So in the case of bereavement, right, you've got a spouse, a partner, someone that you care deeply about. Your brain has, for your own attachment needs, had enough experience with that person that it can predict with relative certainty when you're going to see them again and where they are such that you don't have to worry about it anymore. Like, can you imagine if you didn't believe that your child or your spouse, that you knew where they were or when you would see them again? You would never be able to relax. Right?
So, it's a great thing that our brain does, that it has had enough exposure to this relationship that we're in, that it can predict, you know, where that person is and when we're going to see them again, how long it would take for us to get to them. But then when they die, right, or they aren't in our lives anymore, and this could be a divorce or this could be a job, right? This can be so many things, but then the data changes, and now the old predictions that our brain used to make are now no longer accurate. Right?
So it's kind of like, there's a book that I love called The Grieving Brain by Mary-Frances O'Connor. And she explains it by saying that, you know, imagine that you walked into your dining room in the middle of the night, and you know where your dining room table should be is an empty space that would be so disorienting to you even in the dark because, you know, you. You know where your dining room table should be, right. And if it's just gone, that wouldn't make sense to your brain.
And it's the same thing in grief where it doesn't make sense, sense to our brain that this change has happened because it's not lining up with the predictions that our brain is making. And so our brain has to have enough exposures to the new reality so that it updates the predictions that it makes, so that it stops telling us that the dining room table should be where it is. Right? It stops telling us that when the garage door opens, it should be that person coming home. It stops telling us that when we reach over in the middle of the night, they should be there. And so time does have to pass to have enough exposures to the new reality that our brain catches up and relearns. And so that is important. So, if we can make space for that weirdness, which, if you don't know about it, you will question your own sanity.
EMILIE: Well, the word disorienting was such an apt term, I think, to use there because, so many neural pathways are dependent on old data at that point. Right? We were talking about the brain like we're talking about AI and language learning models, which is kind of funny, but that's really what we are in some ways. It's like our brains have to relearn the new assumptions. Right?
KRISTA: Yes. And as that's happening, it feels so weird.
EMILIE: Wildly weird. Yeah. Just wildly disorienting.
KRISTA: Yeah. Because you kind of question. You kind of question yourself, and you kind of, you know, for many people, it's, it's the intellectual knowing, but yet it hasn't had. Doesn't feel like it's sunken in yet. And so can we make space for time to pass so that the brain can relearn? And also, as time is passing, can we do what we need to do to support ourselves without just letting time do all the work? You know?
Because so many people we, like, white knuckle our way through. Like, I don't want to feel any of my feelings. If I can just distract myself. We maybe we start, you know, eating more, drinking more, or working more. Right? We start shopping more. We start doing things to avoid feeling, hoping, you know, that time will pass. And people say things like, well, just stay busy, as though that is the answer. And so those are the things we want to be aware of, is, okay, I mean, if I want to go back to work, go back to work, but also, you know, watch for the point where we're doing it to excess, to avoid, and where it is becoming a net negative.
EMILIE: Right. Right. Too much of a good thing can backfire. Right? Yeah. That's really, really interesting. Well, it's also just good to know that there's so much science out there and so many more models and so many great resources for folks available who want to seek that out.
What happens if you're not the person directly experiencing grief, but you might work with someone who is. So, a lot of managers listen to this podcast. You know, grief feels like something that is hard to talk about in a work environment, and yet, I'm sure we will work with people who experience loss. And so, how can we be a good support person for someone else experiencing loss without feeling like we're prying or crossing any lines? Like, what advice might you have for managers who want to be conscientious in that way?
KRISTA: Well, first, I would say extend grace to yourself, right? Because you are going to say something and wish you'd said it differently or wish you hadn't said it, right? And everyone's going to respond differently. Even when your heart is in the right place and you say the thing that you think is the right thing, they might not receive it the way that you intend it, and so just grace for everyone, right? It's just, it's hard for all of us. So I think that's helpful.
Also, I think, you know, understanding and really considering where you're coming from before you decide what to say will help. So many times, the things that people say that are received as minimizing are done because they are, maybe unknowingly, trying to alleviate their own discomfort. Right? So, if I don't have the capacity to be with you when you are uncomfortable, I'm going to say things to try to make you feel better. They're in a better place. All things happen for a reason. You know, at least they're no longer suffering. You're young. You'll find someone else. Right? They would want you to be happy. These are the kinds of things that come out of people's mouths when they are uncomfortable, watching other people be uncomfortable.
EMILIE: They're like, let me put a nice little bow on this conversation. Problem solved. Let me walk away after I drop this knowledge bomb. Yeah.
KRISTA: Yeah, at least you had them for, you know, the amount of time that you had them, and, you know, things like that. So I think we don't say minimizing things when we're okay with other people being sad or upset. Right? I get that most of us believe happiness is the goal, and I don't think that's so helpful.
EMILIE: I think this comes from such a well intentioned place. But Brené Brown has this viral clip that comes from one of the talks that she's given about silver lining other people's situation and how, you know, toxic positivity or whatever you want to call it, you know, looking on the brightest side is so isolating for folks in that moment. If you are living under a storm cloud and someone comes along and tries to show you the silver lining of that cloud, man, how alone do you feel in that moment, right?
KRISTA: Exactly. Yeah. So just, can you be with someone instead of trying to make them feel better? So what I experienced and what I see a lot of my clients experiencing is that people also sometimes they either say minimizing things or they don't say anything. And so the not saying anything often comes from, again, it's the same problem of, I don't know how to feel good when somebody else isn't. And I see that they look like they're feeling good, so if I say something, then it'll probably make them feel bad, and I don't want to do that, so I better just not say anything.
Which can also end up making someone feel like they're alone. Hugo and I worked together at the same company, so everybody knew him. In fact, people knew him. He'd been there for 20 years. I'd only been there for 10. And so a lot of people knew him for a lot longer than they had known me. And yet still, it was hard for people to talk about it in my presence. And I get that because they didn't want to upset me. But from my perspective, I loved it when somebody would tell a Hugo story, you know?
But I kind of had to take the lead because I could tell that people were so uncomfortable with it. And so when there would be a moment in a meeting that would have been the natural time to crack a Hugo joke, you know, I would be the one to crack it. And then eventually, I think people started getting the message. But if we can remind ourselves that the person who's grieving is almost always thinking about what's happened, like, their whole life has pretty much been impacted by this. There's not a time really, when they're not thinking about it, even if they don't look like they are. And it's usually actually very well received to know that they aren't alone in thinking about it. So I would personally way rather someone said something than nothing.
EMILIE: And m in those moments, what were the best ways for them to broach this topic with you? Like, when people did choose to say something and it wasn't minimizing. What did that sound like?
KRISTA: Mhm. I remember someone, one of my co-workers, just offering. This was before I had gone back to work. Just offering to take me out and go hang out. Like, it wasn't even like, we have to talk about your loss, or we don't have to talk about it. It was just, hey, you want to go to the bookstore? You know, you want to just go hang out? Just somebody, people being willing to be with you, without trying to get information from you, or prying necessarily. That was very helpful. Any sort of storytelling was also very helpful. You know, crack a joke, say something that reminds me that he mattered to you. You know, it was really nice to hear.
Acts of service go a long way. It's really hard to tell someone what you need when it feels like your world fell apart because you don't really know what you need. And a lot of what you hear is, well, just, you know, let me know what you need. And what really helped me the most were when people just jumped in and offered to do specific things. Hey, can I come mow your lawn? Hey, can I come, you know, like, one of my friends just said, hey, can I buy the school supplies for your kids? Like, her kids, went to the same school as my kids, and she just. She knew what to get, and so she just did, you know, so those kinds of things, I think, can't be underestimated.
And how are you doing today? Can sometimes be easy, can be more palatable than, how are you doing? How are you doing? Is such a hard question to answer when 1 minute you feel like you're okay, and then the next minute you want to crawl in the fetal position, you know, so how are you doing today? Or how's your morning going? Can be easier than those bigger questions.
EMILIE: That is such, such great advice. I know our time is limited, so I want to make sure we have some time to talk about life beyond grieving. You talk about post-traumatic growth. I'm wondering just, if you can explain what that even means, post-traumatic growth and how it might change the way that we all perceive someone who's going through a really hard time.
KRISTA: Mhmm. Yeah. Post-traumatic growth is a phrase that was coined in the mid-nineties. Again, it's just something that people aren't really talking about very much. But a couple of researchers, last name's Tedeshi and Calhoun, were doing research, and they were kind of at that time thinking that when something traumatic happened to someone, the best you could hope for was to get them back to the quality of life that they had before the trauma. And what they learned was that that actually wasn't true.
So, some people experience something traumatic, and at that time, we were thinking of trauma as very objective. You know, this event was traumatic. That event was not. Now, we understand that it's. It's highly subjective, but they were noticing, okay, some people experience something traumatic, and then their level of wellness or quality of life dips, and it never returns. Some people experience something traumatic, and their level of wellness dips, and then it returns, it bounces back to where they were. That's what they thought the goal was.
But then there's this third group of people that they noticed who actually would dip, but then not just bounce back. They would actually bounce forward. And they were reporting greater levels of wellness or life satisfaction, but not in spite of what had happened. It was literally because of what had happened. Right? So something happened, and then they took what had happened to them and then made choices accordingly. Right? And reported greater satisfaction with life.
So what we know about that is that there's five domains of post-traumatic growth, and it doesn't have to be a big thing, but, like, something like, you know, appreciation for life is one of the domains of post-traumatic growth. So, all of a sudden, you know, you've been living this life on autopilot. Something happens, and it's, it's big for you, and you realize, oh, life is more precious than I thought. And maybe you start showing up differently in your life because you realize that life is more precious than you thought.
Or you have a spiritual change. Right? Maybe you question all your spiritual beliefs and come to different conclusions. Maybe it's deeper, you know, into the same place that you were, but more meaningful. Maybe it's a complete shift and a total transition, it can be deeper relationships with people, an increased realization that you're stronger than you thought you were.
For me, I realized I didn't really love the career that I was in. You know, it was paying the bills. Hugo loved it. He loved being an engineer in aviation, and that was the world that we were in. I was just doing it for the money. And to have that record scratch moment where you come along and you go, oh, wow, okay, if it can be taken that fast, am I making the difference that I want to make?
EMILIE: I'm so glad you went there, because you seem like a living example, and I don't want to project this onto you, but based on what I'm seeing of your work, like someone whose life has been truly transformed by your loss. And now, right, you're someone who provides life coaching as a master certified coach for widowed moms in particular, would you put yourself in that third category?
KRISTA: Oh, 100%. 100%. And I will also tell you that there was a time when the idea of post-traumatic growth felt offensive, because it felt like, to me, you know, to say that I liked my life more after my husband died than I did when he was alive, is also to say I didn't appreciate him. I wanted him to die. I didn't love him. Like, some things that it doesn't mean.
To me it means, you know, a tornado came and knocked down your house. You didn't ask for it. You didn't like it. You don't have to want that it happened. But then maybe you took that opportunity to update the design of your house, right? And that's our right as humans, to constantly keep looking at what's happened to us, see if it aligns with our values, and make choices that have us living lives that are more aligned with what we value. And that looks different for every person, but it's possible for every person, too.
EMILIE: Is that what you help your clients navigate? Is that sort of the goal?
KRISTA: Yeah. What I find is that people kind of get stuck in what I call a grief plateau sometimes, where they look like they're doing great from the outside, and people are telling them that you're just so strong, you're doing so great. I don't know how you do it, and you kind of understand why they're saying that, because you have been through something, but how you feel on the inside isn't strong or great or amazing. And it's hard to imagine being genuinely happy again. You know, you'll survive. You're surviving, but it's hard to imagine thriving again. And that's my love, because that's where I got stuck, right? Is in that, it's okay, and I'm gonna make it, but I'll probably just be focusing on the kids, and I probably won't ever be truly happy. But I should just be grateful for what I had because, you know, I did have my shot at happiness, right? As opposed to, okay, that's nonsense, right? Like, I'm still alive on this planet. I still get to make choices about where I want my life to go and what I want to do, and I don't have to be grateful that he died to do any of that. Right? I can still be sad that it happened and still wish it hadn't happened and go on and figure out how to create something that I love.
EMILIE: And there's something very radical about that, especially for widows. Right?
KRISTA: For sure.
EMILIE: There's something very radical about saying, you know what? This is my one and true, precious life, and I also deserve to fight for my own happiness, even if it requires that.
KRISTA: Yeah. And it's like this beautiful opportunity. I feel like I need to whisper because it's between you and me, even though there's, like, a [INAUDIBLE]. It's like this opportunity for liberation that people don't see coming, right? Because so much of what holds us back is just junk we've picked up from our culture about a woman's role and what happiness is supposed to look like. And do you have to be partnered to be happy? And, you know, how have we been actually creating our own definition of what we want our life to be about? Or have we just been subscribing to somebody else's? And to help people question that and then make that choice? Dang.
EMILIE: I mean, yeah, sometimes you have to hit a rock bottom moment where you feel like you've got nothing else to lose, to throw out the playbook you've inherited from society. Absolutely, Krista. Wow. This has been such a powerful conversation, and you are such a fount of knowledge on all of this from, both your own lived experience and the research. Where can my listeners go to learn more, more about you and the great work you do?
KRISTA: Well, yeah, come listen to The Widowed Mom podcast. I realize that that sounds very specific, but I have so many listeners who are not widows or moms. They just want to learn about grief, and they want to learn about post traumatic growth, so definitely they can go there. And then coachingwithkrista.com is my website. I have a ton of free stuff, so, you know, and I'm always open for conversations, too. If people have questions or they want me to point them towards a resource, they can always reach out.
EMILIE: Amazing. Krista. We'll drop links to all of those wonderful resources in today's show notes. Thank you so much for the work that you're doing.
KRISTA: Oh, thank you. I love it. I love it. Thank you for the work you're doing.
EMILIE: Thank you. Let's keep it up.
KRISTA: Okay.
EMILIE: For links to everything Krista and I just discussed, head to bossedup.org/episode470. That's bossedup.org/episode470. There you'll find a fully written out blog post synthesizing the great points that Krista just made, and linking you to lots more resources, including a fully written out transcript, if that's your jam. I found this conversation to be so eye opening. I could clearly talk with Krista all day. I'm curious to hear from you. Let's keep the conversation going as always, in the Bossed Up Courage Community on Facebook, or in the Bossed Up LinkedIn Group.
How has grief shown up in your life in recent years? How is it something you've helped others in your team or in your workplace, navigate over the past few years? And what did Krista say today that really was eye opening for you? I thought she opened my eyes to a lot of different myths around the grieving process
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and how we can approach that with self compassion and kindness and patience with ourselves and others. Can't wait to hear what you think. And until next time, let's keep bossin’ in pursuit of our purpose, and together, let's lift as we climb.
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