Set Better Boundaries To Manage Relationships in Work and Life
Episode 464 | Host: Emilie Aries | Guests: Jan and Jillian Yuhas
Content warning: this episode and blog post briefly touch on alcoholism, substance abuse, and abusive relationships.
Values-based boundaries level up our communication and garner respect.
Why is setting boundaries so simple in theory but so hard to practice? When it comes to any kind of assertive communication, it takes practice to make new habits permanent.
That’s what my guests on today’s episode teach in their business and their new book, Boundary Badass: A Powerful Method for Elevating Your Value and Relationships. Jan and Jillian Yuhas are twin relationship and conflict resolution specialists, coaching ambitious executives, companies, and families to help them build stronger, growth-oriented relationships and set boundaries that stick.
Why is boundary setting so hard?
For many of us, one of the biggest challenges of boundary setting comes from our fear of disappointing others—also known as people-pleasing. We worry about how someone else will react if we set a boundary.
Jan and Jillian explain that this is one of the big misconceptions about how to approach this vital task. We put off setting the boundary until we are pushed over the edge, and then our “boundary” is reactionary—if that person doesn’t do XYZ, then we’re opting out of the relationship altogether. Too often, we create an ultimatum rather than a true boundary. To counteract this, it helps to operate from a foundation of logic and values rather than a place of acute emotion.
The Yuhases have developed a “We vs. Me” mindset that encourages bridging the differences in every conversation and confrontation. “It’s not to say your perspective is right or wrong or my perspective is right or wrong; it’s about ‘we each have different perspectives but how are we going to find a middle ground that we both can live with’,” one that honors the relationship and lets us achieve the goal we’re working toward?
Identifying your value-centered boundaries
The Yuhas twins define a value as the opposite of the emotional trigger that prompts the negative reaction. If we feel dismissed or ignored, for example, we value communication. Identifying the boundary from this point—from the value of communication—has profoundly better results than coming at it from the negative perspective—the frustration of being dismissed. If we keep setting boundaries from this reactive place, “we’re shutting the door and locking it rather than having that gate where we let in the good and keep out the bad through our boundaries.”
When our values start to shift
Chances are, your values have shifted over time. If you go from single to a serious relationship or childfree to juggling a whole household of tots you’ll be rebalancing to fit how you operate within those new dynamics. Being conscious of your shifting values and priorities can make adjusting your boundaries accordingly a bit easier.
“The more self-awareness we have,” the Yuhases say, “the more clarity we will have about what our values systems look like.” In a personal relationship, this clarity can come from something as simple as a monthly meeting where you both address those shifting boundaries. In the office, you might call attention to an incoming shift in your role, responsibilities, or the company direction with a different kind of meeting request: “I value a growth mindset and leadership, so can we find a time to sit down and talk about X in order to help us achieve Y?”
In both cases, it’s about carving out the time to make sure you and everyone involved remain respectfully aligned.
Dealing with boundary-crossing co-workers
As a mom with a 2-year-old at home, I’ve become pretty familiar with a toddler’s innate ability to express their emotions unabashedly. Like most 2-year-olds, he’s quite vocal about his feelings, and now that I’m working in the corporate world, it’s astonishing to see these same tendencies being acted out by the occasional colleague. I wanted to know what Jan and Jillian recommend we do when we’re trying to practice calm, assertive communication and boundary-setting and the other person is throwing a grown-up version of a temper tantrum in response.
The first approach they suggest when your colleague is locked in an ego-centric mindset and operating from a place of basic, selfish personal need is to try to calm them down and recenter the conversation. Try, “It seems like maybe we’re misunderstanding each other here. Can you help me understand your perspective or what you heard?” Open-ended questions like these keep the exchange compassionate while also guiding it toward a resolution. Using a soft, lower tone of voice encourages your discussion partner to match your tone.
If your attempts to realign the conversation still fall short, you’re well within your rights to suggest revisiting the conversation at a later date, when you’re both in a better headspace.
The communication, resolution, and boundary-setting tactics that Jan and Jillian share in our conversation and their new book can help leaders and aspiring leaders everywhere have better conversations and see better outcomes. But there’s an even bigger benefit here: we automatically attract respect by how we carry ourselves and communicate our value.
Everyone else will respond to how we show up in the world because, as Jan says, our relationships with ourselves are the most important ones—they go a long way to obtaining the respect of other people.
What do you find difficult about setting boundaries? What tactics and strategies do you use, or which would you like to put in place, to set better boundaries and communicate your value to your loved ones, colleagues, and the world at large? Swing by the Courage Community on Facebook or join us in our group on LinkedIn to share your thoughts.
Related links from today’s episode:
Learn more about Jan and Jillian
Buy “Boundary Badass: A Powerful Method for Elevating Your Value and Relationships”
Speak Up: An Assertive Communication Course
Bossed Up EP 251: The Difference Between Assertive V. Aggressive Communication
More Bossed Up Episodes on Assertive Communication
Learn how to SPEAK UP assertively, without apology:
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EMILIE: As a quick trigger warning, today's episode briefly touches upon alcoholism, substance abuse, and abusive relationships. So if those topics are not safe for you to hear about, today's episode might be one to skip.
[INTRO MUSIC IN]
EMILIE: Hey, and welcome to the Bossed Up podcast, episode 464. I'm your host, Emilie Aries, the Founder and CEO of Bossed Up, and I'm so delighted today to talk about a topic that seems just evergreen and omnipresent,
[INTRO MUSIC ENDS]
and that is the topic of boundary setting. Why is boundary setting so hard and yet also kind of simple like, that is the crux of today's conversation, and I'm so delighted to be able to pepper two experts today with my barrage of questions around boundary setting that I know will resonate with my listeners like you, but also very much was just selfishly needed for me today.
So I want to introduce you today to a pair of authors, co-authors, and experts on boundary setting. Jan and Jillian Yuhas, their relationship and conflict resolution consultants and international best-selling authors of the new book Boundary Badass: A Powerful Method For Elevating Your Value And Relationships.
Jan and Jillian have coached highly ambitious executives, companies, and families for more than a decade on, building stronger relationships, elevating growth, and mastering the art of setting boundaries both both personally and professionally. That is exactly what I need more of in my life, and I hope you benefit from this conversation as much as I did.
Jan and Jillian, welcome to the Bossed Up podcast.
JAN AND JILLIAN: [IN UNISON] Thanks for having us.
EMILIE: I have to say, this is a first. Twin experts on the topic of boundary setting just feels so apt. Help me understand how, of all the topics in the world, the two of you came to write this phenomenal book, Boundary badass, a powerful method for elevating your value and relationships. All about boundary setting. What inspired the book?
JAN: There's a little bit of a personal and a professional aspect in terms to how boundaries became our purpose and mission. Personally, we grew up in a rural farm town of 900, moved to a metropolitan city of 3 million, and went through a huge culture shock through that experience. And that experience taught us that we needed to have stronger boundaries in our lives because we were encountering situations where we weren't being heard or understood and respected by others. And so we were operating from a place of motion and realized we need to operate from a place of value instead.
EMILIE: Yeah. Excellent. Anything you want to add to that, Jillian?
JILLIAN: I would say that when we first actually started implementing boundaries, it wasn't our professional lives before we actually realized that they could apply in our personal life, because obviously, we're using more of that value system, which we all well know in like, in terms of our professional lifestyle or business. And so I think a lot of times, how do you incorporate that into your personal life? Because most of the time we're used to using our emotion where we needed to switch to that value based framework.
JAN: Yeah. From a professional standpoint, I think what inspired us to go into this field professionally was we used to volunteer at a crisis hotline for three years, and that's where we started mediating between teens and their families in terms of establishing the healthy boundaries before they returned back home. And that inspired us to get our Masters in Marriage and Family Psychology and then also later on, become certified mediators as well.
EMILIE: Well, yeah, I mean, I can imagine how, you know, everything about boundary setting, it transcends the personal and the professional, right? And I find it sometimes people like, me for instance, I find it easier to set boundaries at work, harder to set boundaries with my personal loved ones, right? And I know many folks put themselves in the opposite camp, but using your system, it, like, it really all comes back to self worth, right? And valuing oneself.
So let's get into it. First of all, why is boundary settings so hard? Like, why is it so hard? I get so many questions that really boil down to, I know I need to set a boundary here, but I can't. I won't. I don't know how to. Like, why is it so challenging?
JAN: I think it's challenging because often people fear the other person's reaction if they were to set a boundary. And that's one of the biggest misconceptions out there. And that's what's different about our method, is that a lot of people are learning trauma-based boundary setting. It's like, if you don't do X, Y, Z, then I'm going to do this, which is like an ultimatum or a demand that's being projected onto the other person.
And when we're doing that, the other person doesn't have a voice in regards to the boundary being set within the dynamic itself. And so oftentimes we're going to get backlash or poor reactions from other people. And so then that hinders people from wanting to voice their value and set boundaries in relationships.
EMILIE: Right, as a quick example, early on in my career in life, I was very much in love with and living with someone who struggles, like millions of Americans do, with addiction, alcoholism. And I was 21 years old and had no idea what I was dealing with. But when I did finally get in the hands of a capable therapist, I remember thinking about, you know, the whole AA approach, or what is it Al Anon, like the family supports that exists around communities focused on addiction was focused on, okay, like, you have to let that person sink or swim. Like, you have to set that boundary. And if they're not willing to respect it, whatever the boundary is, you need to leave. Like, you need to cut them out of your life. And that's so hardcore. It's so one way to your point, right?
JAN: Yeah, because the problem is we're not getting to the core of the disconnect in the relationship is what's happening. And obviously, when there's substance abuse, that may have nothing to do with the other person, even though they're. There might be something that you were unaware of in that relationship that might be triggering your partner to drink because they have unresolved wounds, but that's not your responsibility.
It's their responsibility if they have a substance abuse problem. Even though what happens when a romantic relationship, we all have unresolved rooms somewhere in childhood that we're projecting onto that dynamic. And really, it's really those triggers, we're projecting behavior that we would want to address with our parents onto our partner.
JILLIAN: Which all those wounds also tend to show up in our professional life. So a lot of times, we will attract the boss or the remainder part of [INAUDIBLE]. They have very similar qualities in nature. It's just the face is different when we're looking at those two people, but we're experiencing very similar behaviors and patterns and habits that actually trigger us or upset us in some way, shape, or form, because they're not respecting what we need to thrive in that relationship. And that's where our method is all about this we mindset vs the me mindset.
EMILIE: Tell me more about that. The we versus me mindset when it comes to setting boundaries. What does that mean?
JILLIAN: So it's all about, like, how can we bridge the gap between our differences? So, it's not to say your perspective is right or wrong or my perspective is right or wrong. It's about we each have different perspectives, but how are we going to find a middle ground that we both can live with that's going to honor the relationship, but still maintain that goal or reach whatever that, or be able to obtain the project, whatever the timeline is of a, you know, milestone, of what a project we're working on.
So it's all about how do we find a way to work with each other, but it's not necessarily we're not negotiating our value, we're just negotiating the solution or problem solving, more or less?
EMILIE: So let's work with a hypothetical here, because I find that not only can I personally relate to this right now, but a lot of my listeners have been here before, where it's foundational in that we love our work, we want to be valuable to work. We overdo it, and all of a sudden, work becomes accustomed to us putting in 40, 50, 60 hours a week, and we are on this hamster wheel, right, of where all of a sudden, our good work has only led to more work being put on our plate.
And I'm kind of, like, chuckling about what you were saying earlier around our childhood traumas and triggers. Because I have a two and a half year old, so I'm a toddler mom, and I also recently just took an in house leadership development position at a big company for the first time after being, you know, solo at Bossed Up for the past decade. And everywhere I look in corporate America, I just see toddler behavior.
[LAUGHTER]
JAN: So toddlers are operating in their prime, like, want, of like, I need this, I want this. They're also in that testing phase of boundaries because we learned trust at the age of two and what our limits are. But usually, so they're operating in that, you know, basic need or ego in terms of, and so also, when you get in the workplace, if you have a lot of egocentric individuals focusing on only what I want, I need, give me this, you know.
EMILIE: [LAUGHTER] There's so much overlap in my life right now, and I'll say to my son Max, I'll be like, mommy, setting a boundary I have to follow through, like, this is happening, you know, and trying to be firm with my boundaries and not, not use them all the time, but also thinking about how to apply that as a parent, or as a daughter myself, and as a colleague at work is really tricky.
So when it comes to someone who's just totally overwhelmed at work, the workload has become too much. You're over capacity. You know, what does this we versus me mindset have to do with how we begin setting boundaries there? Because I just think it's so much more approachable if you just flip it to that we mentality, because you're not just saying, be aggressive and say, no, we're saying be assertive and be clear, right, about how we can negotiate those boundaries. So how does that start?
JAN: Yeah, so if somebody's say, let's say somebody's dumping a lot of extra projects onto your plate and you're feeling overwhelmed by all of this, and you don't feel like you're going to be able to manage it all or get it done in the time that the project needs to be completed by or the responsibilities, you might say, to a co-worker or even to management. Whoever you need to speak to about, I've been handed XYZ in regards to complete these projects, I'm sensing that there's going to be a lack of time in order to complete it all given what else is already on my plate, how can we outsource this? Or how can we bring on other team members in order to help us get it done on time.
EMILIE: Right. As opposed to, I'm gonna silently suffer, my life, my health, my mental health is gonna go in the toilet because I feel this, like, compulsive need almost to just do it to feel valuable and then feel resentful, right? Like, that's the cycle I see so many women on and myself included.
JAN: And that can be having that people pleaser mentality, feeling like you feel stuck and you don't have a voice, and that you feel like you have to do it in order to be valued at the company. But really, we need to also speak up what our limits are, because if we do try to take on ten projects and we don't have the proper time management to fulfill them at the level they need to be fulfilled, then that reflects on our work ethic and productivity level as well.
JILLIAN: Also, too, if you're receiving, you know, projects, things outside of your employment contract that you were originally hired to do, you can always leverage that too, as a way. Can you share, you know, where this project falls along in terms of my, you know, responsibilities, objectives, or my role and responsibilities within the organization? I just want to make sure we're on the same page, you know, how can we best achieve this?
JAN: Yeah, because I feel like a lot of companies we've seen is they'll dump two to three different roles onto one person rather than hiring another person to come on board.
EMILIE: Yeah, I mean, capitalism will do that, right? [LAUGHTER] Like, there's an incentive to do that. And so I get it. There's that sneaky little line in most of our job descriptions, too, that says, and other projects as assigned at the bottom, you know, like this and whatever the h*** else we decide.
So there is this, like, personal responsibility that you come back to in your book of, you know, at the end of the day, like, it's on us to actually use our voice, to recognize that we have that voice. And it's so hard if we're preoccupied with how this is going to resonate with others and we just keep putting other people first, which I'm guilty of. Like, I think it's so easy to fall into what I call aspirational planning, which is like, I can do all of this. I'm currently in this mode right now where I'm doing way too much.
And I'm just like, I literally just got off a therapy appointment right before this call started. And my therapist is like, you truly know you can't keep doing all of these things, right? And I'm like, yes, I'm aware, but I'm not going to make any decisions today, so help me understand how this comes back to our values. So what does that process look like?
JAN: So it's always best to determine your top five values to operate from. And you might have personal ones, and you might have five professional ones. And usually there's at least three out of five that are overlap between your personal professional relationships that you're going to operate from. That becomes your authentic truth.
That is your guiding roadmap to set boundaries, because we're setting them from a place of value rather than emotion. And we can determine our top five values to operate by, by looking back in our relationships in terms of what is triggering to us where our needs are not being met. Because the opposite of the emotional trigger is the value or the need that we need met to set the boundary on within the relationship itself.
EMILIE: Oh, wait, let's pause there for just a moment. The opposite of the emotional trigger is the boundary that we need. Can you say more there?
JAN: For example, if we're being dismissed, if we're being ignored, we're going to value communication in our relationship, and so that's where we're going to set the boundary from.
EMILIE: So really, this is one of those moments where, like, your triggers are your road signs pointing to what you want.
JAN: Yes. If that's your cue to take care of you, and that's where we're going to set the boundary from the value that we need met in order to feel respected.
EMILIE: Oh, I love that. Because a lot of my clients and myself will say, I have to draw a boundary because x, y and z is too much. These negative things in my life are becoming a problem, you know? So I have to set a boundary here.
But what we rarely say is, I want to feel this way, right? I aspire to be treated that way. It's a lot easier, I think, just because of negativity bias, right? That we just see what's not working instead of flipping it and figuring out, okay, well, what does that mean I really want?
JAN: Yeah, we need to decide what works for us and our values clarify where our needs are being met for fulfillment in our life. And so we still draw limits as to, you know, what works for us and what doesn't work for us. But just to start shutting everyone out or shutting out different aspects of our life because it's too overwhelming or it's negative for us isn't going to, that's like a, that's almost like an ultimatum. It's just like we're shutting the door and we're locking it, rather than having that gate where we let in the good and keep out the bad through our boundaries.
EMILIE: I kind of want to talk more about that because I think some folks justify pretty brutal one way behavior and call that boundary setting, you know, like, I've been ghosted by professional colleagues in the past who I was like, whoa, I thought we had a good thing going here. Like, I thought we were on a mutually respectful path and just feeling, like, cut out or shut out completely. I'm sure this person thinks to herself, like, I'm just setting a boundary, but there was no communication. Why are people so reticent to have those tough conversations? I think I know why, but what do you do when you're on the receiving end of that slammed door?
JAN: So, normally, when somebody is ghosting you, it's because they are uncomfortable within themselves. They could also have an avoidant attachment style, and so they avoid conflict at all costs because it causes them too much anxiety, and so they just shut down altogether rather than communicating where the disconnect lies in order to get on a better path. Conflict is not a bad thing. It can be a good thing because it helps us create realignment in our relationships. So we are elevating it and getting on the same page.
JILLIAN: And it often gives us an opportunity to have a constructive conversation where we can work through differences. So I think a lot of times when people aren't speaking up, they don't realize that their voice is very powerful, but it could be because they don't have the correct skills that they could utilize in terms of how to fix the problem. So it's easier just to avoid, shove it under the rug versus saying, listen, this is what I'm experiencing. How can we, you know, work through these differences so we can align better going forward just to prevent this in terms of teamwork, for instance, if we're working on a project together. And so I think people sometimes get in their own head versus using that heart centered thinking, which is the leadership mentality mindset that we all need to have, and having those human to human interactions, because that's what allows us to really be authentic, but then also achieve the best performance and productivity in our work life.
EMILIE: Totally. People want that level of authenticity even in their professional settings, if not especially in their professional settings. Right? It's like, it feels so rare nowadays to have that heart centered approach because people can just justify it as, like, look, this is just business. It's not personal, you know?
And that really bums me out. It's like, I don't know if there's, like, an intersection between leadership, like, heart centered leadership and boundary conversations. Yeah.
JAN: Yeah. Heart centered leadership is operating from our value system. If somebody is operating from the opposite of that, then they're operating from their head and their ego. So it'd be egocentric thinking. Egocentric thinking is coming from a place of emotion where heart centered thinking is coming from a place of logic, actually.
EMILIE: Okay, wait, say more about that, because that sounds like the opposite of what I would have thought.
JAN: I know, most people do think it's the opposite. Our values are logical place to operate from. Emotions are often one sided viewpoints being projected onto the relationship. And if we're emotionally triggered, more than likely we're gonna be operating from our ego in that moment rather than from a very calm, centered, valuable place.
EMILIE: Yes. This is me and my beloved husband, who I adore, Brad. I'll make up a whole narrative. Like, oh, my god, he's just, like, totally uncaring, doesn't have a clue, isn't paying attention. Like, doesn't seem to even notice what I need, or what Max needs, or what somebody needs. And he's, like, meanwhile, busy in his brain, redesigning our house because he's gonna start a kitchen renovation. That's his way of showing love and care for our family. You know what I mean?
JAN: That's great if he thinks an act of service is showing love, but if that's not your love language, then there's a disconnect. And so we need to let him know what your love language is so you can receive love in terms of what feels good to you. Right?
EMILIE: Right. We've been working on that.
JAN: A lot of times, people will give love in terms of their love language to their partner, not realizing your partner may not feel loved at all. Yeah.
EMILIE: And I feel like it's changed over time for us. And I wanted to ask you about that when it comes to values, too, whether it's our love languages and how we express appreciation both professionally and personally, which, by the way, I think shows up in really interesting ways at work, or our value systems.
I think what's happening here is that my values are shifting, they're not like, radically changing. Like, I still care about the things that my husband and I have always cared about, which is, like, growth and progress are some of our number one priorities, number one and two values.
But we're entering this phase of, like, family time, where we're trying to shift gears to this more like, nurturing oriented value system and how we spend our time. And it's just not intuitive to us. We're used to go, go, going and doing it all, and we f***ing like it. You know what I mean? We like doing it all, and it's like a problem because it runs contrary to what we say we aspire to. So I wonder, like, what you would make of that generally.
JAN: So sometimes you might need to rebalance things in your life in order to fit your new family like dynamics in terms of how you are, like, operating. So, for example, maybe family time wasn't a priority before. It was more just about the romantic relationship or your careers. And now you have this new dynamic within the connection that you need to make time for. So, you're just rebalancing and recalibrating how you're spending and prioritizing your time, within your lifestyle, and that's fine. As we, you know, if we start a new business or we have to take on a new project, we might have to rebalance and reprioritize everything.
JILLIAN: And I think, too, sometimes as we evolve as individuals, personally or professionally, our values may shift with time, but doesn't mean necessarily you're so much like, quote unquote, changing who you are, but you're more or less changing how what values become more of a priority or become more important versus maybe it was like down at the bottom, where now it's become like, number two because of the latest shift in the relationship dynamic that you're experiencing. And I think…
JAN: The more self awareness we have about ourselves, the more clarity we will have about what our value system like looks like. So it's really key to have self awareness and self reflection. Reflection in order to define, because those values are meeting your emotional needs at the end of the day.
JILLIAN: …and I think, too, our experiences in life are going to change, too, as we become, you know, higher up in a company or we become, you know, experience a new person into the family dynamic. And so as those experiences evolve, sometimes we're going to, like, have a shift in our view system.
EMILIE: Well, I just like how you keep using the term sort of like shift, or realignment, or reprioritize, because it does feel like boundaries are fluctuating. Right. Like, they're not set it and forget it. Right. And so we have to kind of constantly be vigilant about our boundaries.
And I just wonder in times of change, like, what does that recalibration look like? And self awareness, like, what does it look like to spend time figuring out, like, what boundaries you actually need to set?
JILLIAN: Yeah. So in a more personal style relationship, we would, you know, say, have, like, a monthly meeting, perhaps with your partner, and address, you know, if there's financial boundaries shifting, if there's family time boundaries shifting.
So, having those conversations, by prioritizing and making time for that conversation, it shows that each of you are valuing the connection and you want to continue to evolve and be on similar pages. And so sometimes it's just a matter of carving out, like I said, having that monthly marriage meeting, that allows you to stay aligned and get back to where you want to be, because obviously you guys are both going to experience differences or experience, you know, a shift as your roles and responsibilities change within the dynamic.
EMILIE: I wonder how that shows up at work. So you get a promotion, or your role expands, or your colleague is on leave, so all of a sudden you're taking on their work. You know, like, what happens when it comes to those recalibration conversations at work? How might those look?
JILLIAN: So it depends who that would be, but I would suggest, you know, it seems like things have been shifting lately within the workplace. You know, I value a growth mindset or I value leadership. Can we find a time to sit down and talk about X in order to help us achieve Y? You know, when is a good time to talk?
So, in a way, you're setting a boundary, but you're also depersonalizing it. So that way each party doesn't feel like, uh oh, like, what's this about? But you're just doing it because you want to have growth and show that you're both are working towards a similar goal in mind, in regards in the workplace.
EMILIE: Yeah, you make it sound so easy.
[LAUGHTER]
JAN: A lot of practice.
JILLIAN: Yeah, I think practicing is definitely key to a lot of things. And practice with people you feel safe with. Practice with people that you know, they're gonna respond in a very, like, more positive, effective way. So that way, when you do face those really sticky situations that feel, like, so off putting and uncomfortable, it's much easier to speak up and advocate.
EMILIE: I love that. Yeah. You know, it's so funny. I love how your book talks about assertive communication as one of a few communication styles that you talk about, compared to aggressive or passive aggressive communication. That has been something I've been speaking about at Bossed Up for a decade. It's like one of the most popular keynotes I give is on assertive communication, especially for women in the workplace. So how does communication style show up and influence the boundary setting process from your vantage point?
JAN: So when it comes to assertive communication, we are being open, we're being honest, we're letting the other person know that these are our limits, these are our needs, and how can we work together? So that's being assertive. There's transparency in terms of us expressing ourselves, but we're also comforting, a very constructive place in that we're wanting to resolve the disconnect.
So if somebody were more aggressive, which I feel like a lot of times out there, there's a huge misconception between aggressiveness and assertiveness. Don't know where that comes from, but it's a huge misconception. I feel like, actually, I feel like a lot of, like, women sometimes are labeled aggressive if they're just assertive and voicing their value. And that is, aggressive is not assertive communication. Assertive communication is the proper, best way to communicate your needs, in a way.
JILLIAN: And I think it's all about using that median tone of voice versus a high pitched voice, too. And I think assertive is like, we are more focused on the relationship or a win, win outcome where aggressive or manipulative, it's more self-serving or overpowering.
JAN: To dictate the outcome.
EMILIE: Yeah, totally. I have a whole podcast on the difference between assertive and aggressive that I'll link to. And it's something we talk about constantly. Right? Because it's more about that we versus me mindset. It boils down to that. And you're right. Women's voices are policed. Women's perspectives are judged as aggressive and mislabeled as aggressive all the time, when it's simply a woman expressing her needs. What a radical notion.
Because, like, truly, as long as women have been around, like, we've been expected to be conforming to having no needs or desires, right? Or just like, putting everyone else's needs before our own. And it's 2024 and we still got a ways to go to de-program, I think, on a lot of that, because it's self. We censor ourselves in a world that tells women to put everyone else's needs before their own, in big ways and small.
JAN: Yeah. And that all starts back into childhood, usually in terms of what we are taught that, you know, to be a “good girl”, quote unquote, and, you know, people, please. But in order to ignore our own needs and our own voice.
EMILIE: I mean, I wonder when it, like, comes back to childhood. For me, what comes up is when I'm being my assertive, authentic self at work, and I'm trying to put the relationship first, and I'm leading with my positive intent for the conversation, and I'm, you know, I'm doing all the things that you described. I'm still dealing with someone else's inner child.
JAN: That is true.
JILLIAN: Yep.
EMILIE: So what happens when, like, the whole conversation blows up? Because that inner child is having a tantrum and, like, is not meeting me halfway.
JAN: So you do have the power to help calm that person down and recenter the conversation. And that comes through discovery questions. The discovery questions, we might say, it seems like maybe we're misunderstanding each other here. Can you help me understand what your perspective is or what you heard? So we're asking them for insight, these are discovery questions are open ended questions that allow us to ask for insight or perspective, but we're also indirectly guiding the conversation to a resolution through our discovery questions.
JILLIAN: I think, too, sometimes when you're using that very calm tone of voice, people are more inclined to also lower their voice, because if you don't raise your voice, even though that they are, then they're more likely like, oh, this person's not getting fueled or fired up by my, you know, antics. So it's not going to work on them. So that means then they actually want to have a constructive conversation.
But I think if it gets very heated in the moment, you can just say, listen, it doesn't sound like we're going to hear each other out today. Can we revisit this conversation tomorrow or the next day and find a time that you guys can set and regroup when you can both be in a better headspace to navigate that.
EMILIE: Yeah, I mean, the stories I've heard from women, like, especially in finance and law, for whatever reason, there seems to be a lot of yelling in law firms. Like, the stories I've heard of women who've had to just stay calm, de-escalate a situation, and then, frankly, create what you call a physical boundary by just walking away and saying, like, look, this is not a productive way for us to have this conversation. Let's try again tomorrow, or let's try again another time.
And I like how in your book, which I think is really important to do, given your specialties, you differentiate between boundary setting and, like, abusive behavior and like having to be safe. Why don't you touch on that?
JILLIAN: Yeah.
JAN: Yeah, If somebody is absolutely abusive to you, whether it's physically, your safety is in jeopardy, whether it's physical, verbal abuse, it could be like substance abuse in any sort of way that you feel like you're not safe in that moment. You can definitely set a hard boundary and excuse yourself in order to seek safety away from that person because you should not jeopardize any sort of safety.
So the boundaries. Yeah, our boundary method is for people who can have, like a conversation in order to negotiate a resolution. But yes, for safety purposes. Excuse yourself if somebody is unable to have that constructive conversation.
EMILIE: Right. And it's like, not on you to get the script perfect. Right. It's like you provide some great scripts in here that are really helpful examples, but it's like, it's not your job to be mutually respectful in that conversation. Like, if someone's not respecting your humanity, your physical safety, get the f*** out. Right? Easier said than done. But, you know, I think that's an important call out.
What's one thing you want everyone to know about boundary setting that we might not have touched on already?
JILLIAN: I think it's a skill that everybody can learn and is going to benefit from because we all have relationships that have layers to them, whether it's in our personal or professional life. But it's so important that we know how to communicate effectively, effectively if we want to see growth in our personal life or professional life.
So, just knowing how to navigate discord or discomfort is going to be such an empowering way of being able to show up as the best leader and be someone who's viable, who adds value to other conversations. But it's going to allow you to have this emotional freedom and live your best life.
JAN: It also makes us much more high value, and people are more likely to receive us when we are able to articulate ourself and our needs in a very respectful manner. So we automatically attract respect by how we carry ourselves and how we communicate our value.
EMILIE: I think that is the irony of this whole conversation, isn't it? When you say, like high value, right? Like, if you value yourself enough to set the boundaries that you deserve and need, knowing that you are a human being who is worthy of all the good things that my child is worthy of, I'm worthy of, right?
Like, if you can actually sit in that place of valuing yourself and setting the boundaries and having the conversations you need to have, as a result, you condition everyone around you to see you as that valuable person right?
JAN: Yes. Only we can determine our self worth and our value, and everybody else around us will respond to how we show up in the world, because a relationship with ourselves is the most important relationship in order to have the I guess, the respect from other people in terms of how these outcome of our other relationships as well.
EMILIE: Totally. It's like we set the tone for, like, how we treat ourselves, sets the tone for how we expect others to treat us.
JAN: And there will be some of those toddlers out there in life who still struggle because they haven't learned these, like, soft skills or emotional intelligence because they can't get outside of their wounds and themselves. And so they live with this mask.
But really, deep down inside, they wish they could have the emotional freedom and the ability to communicate in this way. A lot of them do have a lot of pain that they just don't express. And it's coming out in a adverse way that's being projected onto the other person. But you can role model to them how you want to be treated, and you have the ability to help them see that this is not acceptable.
EMILIE: Yeah. Oh, it's so funny, because, like, whenever I hear even myself or my fellow Bossed Up community members talk about, I need to deal with this problematic person at work, I need to set a boundary with this toxic boss. It's like, this is such a reminder that it starts with you, like, it all comes back to you, and how we set a tone for how we value ourselves.
Just personally, hearing about your story at the very beginning, I'm wondering, when did you know that you had really embraced boundary setting in a different way? I'm sure it's not a linear path of before and after, but how did you two know like, okay, boundary setting is something I now feel quite capable of doing. Whereas before, when you were experiencing culture shock and realizing, wow, this is not something I'm adept with just yet, you know, like, how did that transformation show up in your lives?
JAN: It started showing up I would say, in our first entrepreneurial endeavors,...
JILLIAN: Yeah
JAN: …in our first business. That's where we really started setting boundaries. And we realized if you just help people feel heard and understood, but then operate from a place of value in order to get on the same page, they were so much more likely to work with you. And then you calmed the emotion within the communication dynamic. And so that's when we realized that this was a whole new world or a new way of setting boundaries from our values versus emotion.
JILLIAN: I think we also realize in that moment, too, everything goes back to family dynamics and so we're thinking, you know, that's what we have gone to school for. But here we are in business and we're using, you know, psychology, family psychology to operate from. And so, and we actually didn't learn boundaries in grad school.
So this is something that we just had to figure out on our own. But then we also realized that, you know, going through, I had went through a very painful breakup at the time, too, but then I started implementing with my husband, who I'm with now, for over ten years, and I realized they were actually working to my benefit because the relationship was growing as I was setting the boundaries to support each of our needs. Because obviously communication is such a huge value for me, both personally and professionally. And he wasn't the best at communication, and I'm a huge communicator.
So I was like, how do we get on the same page? But it was all about, you don't want to, like, be, say something that's detrimental, but you want to say something that says, how can we, like, align? What are we going to do? Because it's like a relationship problem. It's not a me problem. It's not a you problem. It's a relationship problem. And so that's when I was like, why wasn't I doing this sooner? Because it was working, but it was all about how to approach it and position the boundary is what made it so effective.
EMILIE: That's right, because we fear the repercussions of, oh, my gosh, is this going to, like, tank this new relationship that I really care about if I assert myself? And the irony is, no, like, the grass is much greener on that other side. Right? Like, if I am repairing or saying what I need to repair the relationship, like, things get a lot better, both personally and professionally.
JILLIAN: Yeah.
JAN: And if people value you, they'll be willing to work with you.
JILLIAN: If people won't respect those boundaries when you're trying to promote growth, then you have to look back like, okay, if my values, one of my values isn't going to be honored, and this person isn't going to find a way to at least compromise on some level, where's this relationship going to go? Because otherwise we're just going to be butting heads over and over again.
EMILIE: Yeah. You're like, I need to know that sooner rather than later if this isn't going to work out.
JILLIAN: Yeah.
JAN: And sometimes we have to redefine relationships, even in the workplace. If there's somebody that's extremely toxic to your mental health and you've tried everything to set a boundary with them in order to get on a page of mutual respect, and they still just have those temper tantrums and act like a toddler. Then you have to say, okay, maybe I need to limit how much communication I have with this person in order just to get to the bare minimum of, you know, respecting yourself and also just creating that sense of personal boundary for yourself.
JILLIAN: Same with family members, too. You can't get rid of these people, but you know that they push your buttons or they bring up topics of conversation during, like, holidays or events, and you're just like, I don't want to talk about that. And you've already spoke of it, but you can't get this person out of your life. So this is where you have to figure out, okay, I'm going to limit how much I communicate or keep a certain physical distance so I don't get pressed with those ungodly questions that are just like, uh, maybe want to, like, you know, maybe you want to shut down or you want to avoid whatever it is, you know.
EMILIE: Well, I love how your book explicitly touches upon so many different kinds of relationships. And I chuckled out loud when I saw the chapter on, holiday celebration and event boundaries, and I was like, yes, those are always the examples we really need. It's like one thing to negotiate your salary. It's another thing to negotiate who's spending what time at whose house for which holidays. Right? Like, those are tricky conversations.
My last question for you, because this has been such a delightful conversation, is, how did going through this process entrepreneurially and from an education standpoint, and, of course, co-authoring this book with a sibling, with a twin inform the process, because it keeps coming back full circle to family relationships. And here you are as twins, like, doing this work together.
JAN: So I think having a we mindset was always natural to us because our parents raised us to always consider the other person before we would make decisions that might impact each other. And we've always had that mindset in business as well. We don't make any major decisions within the business without consulting with each other, especially if it impacts outcomes. And so that was kind of always innate within us growing up.
And so I just think when we came to writing the book, so she and I are used to, one of us could write something, and we'd be like, in a shared Google Doc, one of us could write something, the other one might delete it and rewrite it. And so we're used to helping each other in that sense, or kind of reading each other's mind in a way.
JILLIAN: Which I think if there's, you know, two co-owners of another company writing a book, the other might feel offended if someone's, you know, writing over there, deleting their words that they're writing, but I think with twins, it's like you sort of have this, like, unspoken understanding. But we do have, you know, boundaries, you know, from our personal and professional lives. And so, like, you know, we need...
JAN: Space from each other once in a while
JILLIAN: …but we do advocate and speak up and just say, okay, you know, I've had enough talk about this today. I'll talk to you tomorrow or the next, you know, the next day, whatever. So it's just. But we're always, like, communicating, and I think that's key. But I wouldn't say that we over communicate because we respect our differences in time in our own personal lives.
But, like, if you can't communicate, then, like, how can you have the best relationships? How are you going to be healthy? Because it really is. And I think when differences come up, it really only takes 15 minutes. It doesn't need to be a drawn out conversation if you just get down to the nitty gritty and stick to the point and use that value, because then you're very clear.
EMILIE: Yeah. It's just such an interesting perspective to be able to have a lifelong relationship like you have at the root of how you're approaching other people's relationships and setting boundaries in them. S,o this has been a delight. Jillian and Jan, thank you both so much for joining me here today. Where can our listeners keep up with you and get their hands on a copy of Boundary Badass?
JAN: Yeah, they can keep up with us at, janandjillian.com and they can grab the book. It's on Amazon. It's on Apple books, Kobo and Google Play right now.
EMILIE: Awesome. And I will drop links to all those resources in today's show notes. Thank you both so much for joining me.
JILLIAN AND JAN: [IN UNISON] Thanks for having us.
EMILIE: For more links to all those resources that Jillian and Jan and I just spoke about, head to bossedup.org/episode464. That's bossedup.org/episode464. And now I want to hear from you. What do you feel is so hard about setting boundaries? I know it's not just me, right? Boundary setting is so elusive and so constantly challenging, but it comes up in different ways. Right? It comes up really differently in our personal and professional lives.
So I'm curious to hear what resonated with you from this conversation today. What tactics or strategies do you want to try to deploy to set better boundaries in your life? And how do we get to the heart of self value, of self worth, which is at the core of boundary setting? I'm curious if you've had a personal revolution around your own sense of worthiness and how that's equipped you to better set boundaries.
As always, my inbox is always open at emily@bossedup.org
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or join the conversation after the episode in our Bossed Up Courage Community on Facebook and the Bossed Up LinkedIn Group. I'd love to keep the conversation going there with you. And until next time, let's keep bossin’ in pursuit of our purpose. And together let's lift as we climb.
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