Autism in the Workplace: Inspiring More Inclusivity
Episode 508 | Host: Emilie Aries | Guest: Dr. Amanda Kelly
How can we make workplaces more inclusive for people with autism?
In April, RFK Jr., the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services, attracted considerable criticism following his comments about the negative impacts of autism and the human-made factors that might be behind its rise. While it’s true that we should be investigating how our environment affects the health of our children, many people in the autism community spoke out against RFK Jr.’s presumptions and blanket statements that no one with autism will ever live a productive and fulfilling life.
This conversation made me think back to when I spoke with Amanda Kelly, the president and CEO of Firefly Autism and one of the founders of the groundbreaking Colorado Neurodiversity Chamber of Commerce (CNDCC). This feels like the perfect time to revisit that episode. We talk about the shocking number of unemployed people on the spectrum, and it’s impossible not to look at our growing talent shortage in this country and ask: why aren’t we hiring more neurodivergent and autistic people?
Helping Employers Embrace Neurodiverse Workers
A few years ago, Amanda and two of her colleagues—one involved in teaching trades to people with autism and the other in providing resources to families of neurodiverse children—sought out a Chamber of Commerce that paralleled their work, only to discover it didn’t exist.
As Amanda explains, after the age of 21, autistic people fall off a “resource cliff.” Once the childhood and educational supports run out, there’s very little funding and information out there for adults navigating the world in ways that differ from the norm. One result of this is a startlingly high unemployment and underemployment rate in people with autism: 80 to 90%!
By creating the first-of-its-kind Colorado Neurodiversity Chamber of Commerce,, Amanda and her peers developed a resource for those who are neurodiverse—a term that includes autism, as well as dyslexia, ADHD, brain injuries, and more— as well as employers who are interested in learning more about the untapped potential of this workforce. People broadly understand that chambers exist to advance the common business interests of certain groups, so the CNDCC is a beacon for both neurodiverse people and organizations and HR teams in Colorado who are interested in creating workplace systems inclusive of everyone.
How do we make workplaces more neuro-inclusive?
Every organization, big and small, should incorporate true inclusivity—the kind that welcomes people from every walk of life and way of processing information. The truth is, though, that even businesses serious about DEI initiatives often leave out neurodiversity from their inclusion initiatives.
Amanda is optimistic that this is inadvertent. She believes most people want to do the right thing and that most of the barriers are a lack of understanding and education. That starts with seeing what’s wrong with the current process. Creating an inclusive workplace has to start long before a neurodiverse new hire walks through the door for their first day.
Take a job posting, for example. Too little time between when a job is posted and when it's taken down is an inclusivity issue that can leave a capable neurodivergent applicant scrambling or not even bothering to apply. Likewise, the posting itself can create unintended barriers. Often, job descriptions cite “excellent communication skills” as a requirement, even when they aren’t really that vital to the position. Many neurodiverse people are well aware of how differently they communicate from others, so they might take themselves out of the running before they even hit “apply.” If stellar communication is required, job postings need to be more specific. Are interpersonal skills most important? Is it verbal communication? Do they simply need to be clear in their emails? Without this specification, a neurodiverse or autistic person might assume the job isn’t a fit, and the employer might miss out on an excellent employee.
Then, in the interview, more unnecessary barriers can arise. A hiring manager might fail to “feel a deep connection” with a neurodiverse person who doesn’t make consistent eye contact—but does the hiring manager need to deeply connect with every new hire? Unconscious biases during the interview process can not only discourage a capable potential worker but also cause a company pursuing DEI to miss out on a unique perspective and lived experience that would positively impact their organization.
The autism and neurodiverse diagnosis struggle
One big advancement Amanda hopes to see in the coming years is improved neurodiversity diagnoses. There is much evidence to support the benefits of an early diagnosis (Alex Gilbert talks about this in episode 390, How to Manage ADHD in the Workplace), and Amanda has seen firsthand the reactions of adults who finally receive a diagnosis, their joy at finally being able to put a name to what they thought was “wrong” with them.
The research reveals a gender bias in autism assessment and diagnosis, too. This is due, in part, to the male-centered tools used in the process, which tend to leave women, who often present quite differently, without affirmation. Misdiagnosis is also much too common.
Amanda hopes that improvements in this area will turn the tide, along with more recognition of the fact that it is the organization’s job—not the neurodiverse person’s—to champion inclusivity and autism support in the workplace. Her work, and the efforts of companies that truly care, can raise the rates of employment for people who think about and see the world a bit differently than others.
What a win that would be for our economy and our future!
What do RFK Jr.’s recent comments and my conversation with Amanda bring up for you? What do you make of the rise in autism rates in recent years, and how do you think we should talk about the autistic community—and neurodiversity in general—in the context of DEI and the workplace? Share your thoughts with our community through the Courage Community on Facebook or our group on LinkedIn.
Related links from today’s episode:
Colorado Neurodiversity Chamber of Commerce
Connect with Amanda on LinkedIn
RFK Jr., “Autism destroys families”
“Addressing the ‘Cliff’ for Adults With Autism Spectrum Disorder”
NYT, “The Dangerous Race to Put More Children to Work”
Autism Recovery Network, “Why Is the Autistic Unemployment Rate So High?”
Episode 390, How to Manage ADHD in the Workplace
Stand up and TAKE ACTION
to promote equity & inclusion now:
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[INTRO MUSIC IN]
EMILIE: Hey and welcome to the Bossed Up podcast, episode 508. I'm your host, Emilie Aries, the Founder and CEO of Bossed Up. And today I want to talk about autism and neurodiversity in the workplace.
[INTRO MUSIC ENDS]
Today I want to share a conversation I had with Dr. Amanda Kelly, who's the president and CEO of Firefly Autism and co-founder of the Colorado Neurodiversity Chamber of Commerce, or CNDCC. It's the first of its kind in the nation and they've been doing some incredible work here as it relates to understanding folks on the spectrum and how much of a huge opportunity that workforce is. Because as it happens, folks on the spectrum and folks with different abilities, neurologically, have a wide variety of lived experiences. But just last month we heard this clip from RFK, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. our current Health and Human Services Secretary, who garnered a lot of criticism for saying this:
[AUDIO CLIP FROM RFK JR. SPEECH]
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: These are children who should not be who should not be suffering like this. These are kids who many of them were fully functional and regressed because of some environmental exposure into autism when they're two years old. And these are kids who will never pay taxes, they'll never hold a job, they'll never play baseball, they'll never write a poem, they'll never go out on a date. Many of them will never use a toilet unassisted. We have to recognize we are doing this to our children and we need to put an end to it.
[AUDIO CLIP ENDS]
EMILIE: Now, I want to first acknowledge that for some folks in the autistic community and some folks with children of different abilities, that is very much true and important to recognize and important to validate that this is an urgent issue that needs further research and funding and support and accommodations. And yet, a lot of folks in the autistic community more broadly also found those comments to be stereotyping and insensitive and stigmatizing.
I just finished watching what is arguably. The best show on television right now, the latest season of Love on the Spectrum. I'm a huge fan of that show, which shows a very different side of autism for folks who are on the spectrum with differing elements of autism and what that looks like for different folks who are doing a lot of the things that RFK just said autistic folks will never do, like falling in love and building lives for themselves.
And so I wanted to bring this conversation back to the forefront of our listeners’ minds because Dr. Amanda Kelly knows more than most how workplaces can be accommodating and inclusive of folks on the spectrum, not just because it's the nice thing to do. Or because we should take pity on these poor folks who need our support, but rather because these folks have a lot to give. Folks on the spectrum have innate value and for those who are looking to be employed, they have real bottom line value too. This is a workforce development opportunity in a world where we still have lots of employers who are looking to fill roles and positions that neurodiverse folks are very well suited to fill.
And so my conversation with Amanda Kelly focused on the workforce opportunity at play if workplaces do their part and create inclusive cultures for folks on the spectrum. So let's dive into what is once again a timely conversation all about autism and neurodiversity at work.
Joining me to talk this through is Dr. Amanda Kelly, who is one of the Founders of the Colorado Neurodiversity Chamber of Commerce, the CNDCC. She's also the president and CEO of Firefly Autism and she's got her PhD and a clinical background when it comes to serving folks in the neurodiversity space. She graduated with a Doctorate of Psychological Science from Maynooth University in Ireland in 2011 and her research background is in acceptance and commitment therapy, ACT, and in relational frame theory. She's also certified as a doctoral level board certified behavior analyst, and is passionate about neurodiversity affirming, values based and trauma informed approaches. She's joining me here on the Bossed Up podcast to talk through how all of this shows up in diversity, equity and inclusion conversations in the workplace. Amanda, welcome to the Bossed Up podcast.
AMANDA: Thank you so much. I am so excited to be here.
EMILIE: I'm excited to chat with you. So first, tell me what inspired you and your co-founders to start the Colorado Neurodiversity Chamber of Commerce, the first of its kind in the whole country.
AMANDA: Yes, well, I think there was lots of levels of inspiration. So myself, in addition to being a co-founder for the Neurodiversity Chamber of Commerce, I'm also the president and CEO of Firefly Autism and I have been with Firefly Autism for 10 years and I know came from Ireland and worked with children on the autism spectrum for years in Ireland and just have a real passion for the area and ended up getting my doctorate in behavioral psychology because of this passion. So yes, and then so the other Chamber of Commerce co-founders, so Danny Combs, he is the Founder and CEO of an organization called TACT, which stands for Teaching the Autism Community Trades. So also very invested in that community. And he started that because his, um, his son is on the spectrum, and that was a real, you know, a real inspiration for him to start this journey. And then our other co-founder, Tiffany Feingold, she is the Founder and CEO of an organization called Guiding Bright Minds. And Guiding Bright Minds really exists to provide resources for families of neurodivergent children. So Tiffany also has her own personal history and story, which was the passion behind that as well.
So all three of us, you know, we knew of each other and knew each other for. For a little while, and we kind of came together and said we want to try and provide some resources and really progression in the area of workforce development for neurodivergent individuals. And I was familiar with the Women's Chamber of Commerce, and I'm a member, and I said, well, we should reach out to a Chamber of Commerce and then we realized there were none. So it was really Danny who said, well, guys, we should just create a Neurodiversity Chamber. And we kind of laughed. And then, you know, three weeks later we were doing it.
EMILIE: So that's phenomenal. Well, what I find so interesting about it is, you know, if you look at the autism community in particular, there's been a lot done when it comes to the research elements and childhood services and educational components. And then it feels like the world forgets about this population, right? Like the minute people turn 18 or graduate from college or finish their education in whatever form, it's sort of like you're on your own. And it certainly doesn't serve the neurodiverse population, but it also feels like a wasted opportunity in a talent crisis that we're currently navigating, right?
AMANDA: Absolutely yeah, I couldn't have said that better myself. An opportunity in a talent crisis. And, um, you're right, there's a term that's used, and it's basically called the resource cliff. So after 21, autistic individuals really kind of tend to fall off this resource cliff. Funding is extremely limited, resources are very limited. And like you said, it tends to be a well, you know, what can we do now? You're on your own. And, you know, we've got anywhere from 80 to 90% of autistic adults unemployed or underemployed. And it's kind of, you know, it's hard to parse out the differences between un and under. But either way, it's a disservice to individuals who can and should be working. And like you said, it's such an opportunity. And I think that's one of the things that we, one of the reasons we really wanted to create a chamber of commerce model.
I think people understand what that means, and, you know, it's great to have a structure of something that people get right. So, like, people are like, oh, yeah, the Denver Metro Chamber, the Women's Chamber. I understand what that means. And there's an opportunity where we have cross industry. It doesn't matter what industry you're in. Every industry is looking for workers and trying to reduce this turnover. And then we have a population of individuals, the most un or underemployed population that there is. Really, it comes down to such an opportunity when it comes to education and just changing structures, really thinking about neurodiversity in diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts, which is not something that people think about, you know?
EMILIE: Right. Well, there's so much stigma, I think, to overcome, and, you know, there's not a lot of people out there, including fully trained HR professionals, who got any education about autism in the workplace or neurodiversity in the workplace in its many forms. So, let's not presume my audience understands the model first and foremost of the chamber, because, you know, when I think of social services around serving neurodiverse communities, like you said, the resource cliff, I think nonprofits, I think social services, I think government services.
So what is the chamber model in terms of bringing that business conversation in with this highly overlooked element of diversity, equity, and inclusion? Like, what does that look like? Because, honestly, I think there might be people scratching their head still thinking like, you're making a really interesting business case for inclusion here. So what does that practically look like in terms of how you all operate? And I know you're brand new, so I also want to acknowledge you're probably still figuring it out. How long ago did you start it?
AMANDA: Nine months ago.
EMILIE: Nine months ago. So we're. We're in infancy here.
AMANDA: Well, I, I do really appreciate the question, because I think that sometimes when you're like, we do have a really clear idea of how and why. And you're right, we always say that we're a very safe space to ask questions. I mean, if someone says to me, what is neurodiversity? I want people to ask me that question, because that's where we're at. We're still at the education stage. So to start with chamber of commerce.
EMILIE: Or start with neurodiversity, what is it? Because that's a great question. Thanks for asking it.
AMANDA: Oh, neurodiversity you can just really think about it as ways of thinking and learning that are not typical from the norm, right? So there's things such as autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia, adhd, brain injuries is included. Even significant depression and anxiety changes the way that your brain works. And people who have, you know, significant mental health struggles don't learn the way that, you know, neurotypical individuals do. So I think there's a lot of understanding that still needs to happen around what is and is not neurodivergent. But really, if you just think of any way of thinking and learning that is divergent from the norm.
EMILIE: So here's a question for you, Amanda. I recently had the phenomenal Alex Gilbert of Cape-Able Consulting on the podcast. We talked all about managing ADHD, the workplace, and she also happens to have dyslexia, but she got a really early diagnosis during her childhood experience that I think really changed the game for her. And in our podcast, we use the word disability to describe that element, those elements of neurodiversity. How does that term land with you? And I know I'm sure there's diversity within the community around this, but do you consider, you know, social anxiety and disability? Do you consider autism and disability? How are people talking about that lately?
AMANDA: So there, you're correct in saying that there is diversity in the community on how we think and talk about this. And I will tell you that we were very intentional about having a neurodiversity chamber and not a disability chamber.
EMILIE: Okay.
AMANDA: There are some disability chambers, very few, but some do exist in the United States. And many of the individuals that we talked to and worked with, um, and some of the people who are, you know, our representatives, like board of directors and members don't identify with having a disability, but some people do. So it goes back to what I always talk about. And it's just, it's an individual choice and it's individual difference. And I think at the heart of everything, once we respect individual differences, we can't really go wrong. So there's no good answer to that.
EMILIE: Okay, that's good. I had a rather, I don't want to say it was angry email, but I was called in or called out by someone on our email list who said, you call this a disability and you shouldn't. And so I wanted to ask you about that because, from my perspective as a workplace rights advocate, I can't help but think about how this intersects with the ADA, right, the Americans with Disabilities Act and the double edged sword of disclosing the fact that you might have a learning ability difference or disability or a hidden element like a difference in how your brain works is that you don't really get to claim those rights under the ADA to reasonable accommodations, for instance, until you disclose those things. And then there's a stigma that goes along with it.
So it really can feel from the individual level like these are impossible choices. What I love about what you're doing, Amanda, is that you're tackling this from a more systemic level, from the business level. So tell me how the commerce model, the chamber model, intersects with your approach or what that looks like.
AMANDA: Yeah, so basically, the chamber and chambers of commerce in general exist to advance the common interests of certain groups in business, sorry, specifically in business. And that was another thing that we want to be very, very clear on. I think when you think about things like, you know, autism and dyslexia and, you know, other, I suppose, labels, people tend to think about resources that might be tied to something like nonprofits or, you know, things like that. And I just wanted to be so clear from day one that we are talking about a group of individuals who deserve the opportunity to have, you know, leadership in business, entrepreneurship, healthy, happy workforce lives. And a chamber of commerce made sense to us because it's not, we are not a charity. It is specifically a non-charitable, now we are a nonprofit, but it's an all chambers of commerce are. It's a non-charitable membership organization. And uh, there are chambers of commerce that represent almost every group that you can imagine. So for us, it was almost like, how on earth does this not exist yet? You know, how or why?
So in terms of the systems change, and I appreciate your acknowledgement of that too, the systems change is important because it shouldn't be up to the individual to make it better for themselves. It should be up to the system to make an all inclusive environment comfortable for anybody who wants to work there. So. So a lot of what we've been doing is starting with education at the HR and leadership level. So, you know, we do events like Neurodiversity 101, you know, as the HR leader or as the executive in your organization, what should, you know? And it can be as basic as what's neurodiversity? Like, let's start the conversation.
And then the thing that's been so amazing to us is the readiness and the willingness of all of the members that we have and the Colorado community as a whole to embrace the fact that it's on them.
EMILIE: Yeah.
AMANDA: It's not on the individuals. You know, you talk about ADA, and it's amazing that, you know, ADA exists. And ADA basically says the same thing. Like, it's on the employer to make things accessible. And you think about equality in the workplace as a whole. And it is on the employers and the businesses to make it an environment such that anybody can thrive and anybody can be successful in.
EMILIE: And I guess one of the first questions that pops up is, is there a size of business that you're targeting? Because I'm wondering if even, like, a tiny startup has any requirement to be inclusive in that way. And frankly, those kinds of mandates certainly help push the needle. But what does that look like? Like, who is required to be accommodating to folks of all walks of life, including those with autism who apply for a job?
AMANDA: I think there's an intersectionality that makes things complicated. So required. I mean, that falls under law, right?
EMILIE: Right.
AMANDA: From our perspective, while it's not a legal requirement, it's more of a human rights issue, right? So, like, every organization should be thinking inclusively. And obviously there's. I mean, so many organizations think really long and hard about their diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts, but neurodiversity is broadly missing from those efforts. Now, I will say it is getting better. And I do again think that Colorado has this unique opportunity to be a leader in this space, and having this Chamber of Commerce can certainly help push the needle there.
But to your question about what size business, all sizes. I mean, we even have. We have membership levels for everyone that you could think of. So an individual, students, entrepreneurs, startups, large businesses. So it's anybody and everybody who can and should really be concerned about this opportunity.
EMILIE: And it is an opportunity. It's a cynical question that I ask [LAUGHTER] because I've seen so much of DEI feel really performative lately. And this year in particular, you know, I'm a small business in the DEI space, and even I'm, you know, my area of focus, gender equity, is not nearly as novel and new to HR departments than understanding autism, right? And I'm getting so much flack this year, so much pushback that I haven't seen in years. I think there's a real war being waged on diversity, equity, and inclusion right now that's working, frankly, on the right.
And, you know, this isn't a political conversation. You're not a political, you know, organization. And this is a nonpartisan issue because it is an opportunity to tap into the workforce. And frankly, my god, we are seeing child labor laws rolled back in the name of business interests with a talent shortage, how frustrating is it to see this population of neurodiverse people just looked past and looked over time and again. So how do you make the business case to organizations that says, this is an opportunity that we're here to help you maximize? If you want creative, dynamic members of your workforce who you have been leaving out, frankly, and leaving behind.
AMANDA: Yeah, I agree with you. It can be definitely frustrating for me. I look at it and I have a fierce sense of fairness. And it's just, I look at the statistics. You know, we have 80, 85% of autistic college grads unemployed overall. I mean, statistics are what they are. They're not 100% reliable, but you've got, give or take, about 40% of neurodivergent individuals as a whole, unemployed, unemployed or underemployed. And that's just not fair. But beyond the fact that it's not fair, it's a missed opportunity. And Emilie, I am such an optimist at my core, and I am eternally optimistic that it is, for the most part, people want to do the right thing. And for the most part, it is just simply lack of understanding or lack of education. Some of our member groups that we've worked with, you know, we look at things like, from the day you post your job post to the interview process, to the onboarding process, there are things you have to think about first. And then when the person's actually working there, then you can start also thinking about, you know, workplace structures.
But, you know, even at the job description, how many job descriptions say things like, excellent communication skills required, and then you dig in and you're like, well, you actually really don't need excellent communication skills for this. And also, what does that even mean? Do you mean written communication? Do you mean verbal communication? Does this person have to have the best interpersonal skills because they're going to work with customers all the time, or do you just mean their emails have to be on point, because there's differences there.
And a neurodivergent individual might read that and go, I'm not even going to apply for that job. Like, I'm not going to get it because this counts me out. So from the job description, you are counting people out without even realizing that you're counting people out. Now, let's say you get to interview same thing. You're counting people out based on things that have been, you know, subconsciously, they're subconscious bias. You're biased towards individuals that make really good eye contact, and that, I almost kind of hate that, that example because it's such an easy one to pick. But I'll pick it anyway just…
EMILIE: Oh, please pick it. It didn't occur to me. I'm uh, sure you've heard it a million times before, but it's. Yeah, no, I wouldn't have thought of that.
AMANDA: …so I mean that's just one thing in a thousand, right? But think like, you know, if somebody's not making eye contact the way that you would expect them to, oftentimes hiring managers think, I'm not sure that didn't feel, I didn't feel a connection with that person. Therefore I'm not going to move forward with hiring them. And you've just counted out one of the best workers that you know, so we always talk about outcomes based like, think about the outcomes. What is it that you need from this job? And um, the hiring manager doesn't need to make a deep connection with every single person that they hire. It's not realistic. And it's again, it's discounting a huge number of individuals who just can't perform in interviews the way that they quote unquote should, right?
EMILIE: Those are such great, I'm sure they're very beginner level examples for you, but those are really frankly helpful, practical explanations of like, where this shows up and it's not different from auditing job descriptions for gendered pronouns, you know?
So what are some examples, if we can take this a step further, of the kinds of neurodiversity friendly businesses who've taken steps to make their workplaces work for folks on the spectrum, for all kinds of different folks who identify as neurodiverse.
AMANDA: We do have a section on our website, actually on our CNDCC website that shows neurodiversity friendly businesses.
EMILIE: I happen to be scrolling on it right now and I, I just want to give a quick shout out to two companies that have hired Bossed Up and we've worked with before Logrhythm and Trimble, both based here in Colorado and major shout out to Colorado by the way, for just being such a leader on this stuff.
AMANDA: I could not agree more. It is such a, it's such a warm, welcoming environment and they're two amazing organizations that you just, you just pointed there. But yeah, I think that at its core we have to be friendly and open to people being able to make mistakes and not getting it perfect 100% of the time because we do understand that there's certain times there's fear around not wanting to mess things up. And I think companies who take the step to, like I said, it might even just be open the conversation, start the conversation, ask questions.
Those companies that uh, show up, that actually come to events or send people to education events, who make the effort to. Even if it's, we're not ready to put this into practice yet, but we want to learn and we try to be pretty descriptive about that when we put that on the website. Like, we're not saying these companies have it perfect. What we are saying is they are trying and that's what we can do right now, you know, and with the aim of continuing to learn and grow and develop and create what we like, we talk about just inclusive environment for everybody. If you're being neuro inclusive, you're being everybody inclusive. Because every neurological states don't differentiate. So if you're neuro inclusive, you're everybody inclusive.
EMILIE: I've never heard that before. Neuro inclusive, I like that. I think it's wonderful. What you opened with was like, look, people are afraid of making mistakes, so you know, they don't take action. And that's true for everyone. So it's like, the first step is to try and to create psychological safety in your workplace does a good service for literally everyone. This is not at the cost of your other workers, right?
AMANDA: Oh my gosh. Exactly. We talk about, there's, you know, some of the tips and we've just had some amazing people educate us too. And you know, someone was talking about meetings. It's like, you know, how many times do you have meetings where you're like, oh my gosh, I just found out about this meeting 20 minutes ago. Don't really know what it's about. Gonna go in, the meeting, lasts for an hour. You're like, why were we in that meeting? And then you don't get a chance to really talk and then you leave the meeting and you don't get a chance to say what you wanted to say in the meeting. Nobody likes that. Like, neurotypical employees don't like that.
So something more neuro inclusive would be, you know, making sure that there are agenda items for every meeting at least 24 hours ahead of time. You're only having meetings if you need them. Meeting notes are taken on a shared document and everybody has 48 hours after the meeting to comment on notes made in the shared document. And wouldn't that be great for everybody?
EMILIE: Mhm.
AMANDA: So it's just little things like that. So like you said, it helps everybody, not just neurodivergent individuals.
EMILIE: That's phenomenal. What would you say to folks listening who are like, oh, my god, Amanda, this sounds amazing. I wish I lived in Colorado. I live halfway across the world. What resources would you recommend businesses check out or individuals who want to advocate for their business to become more inclusive for their employer to become more neuro inclusive? Where do they start? Where can they get started? Other than cndcc.org, which I will put in today's show notes?
AMANDA: I do think the website's a good place to start because there's a neuro inclusive job boards section and it lists a lot of different resources in terms of jobs that people can look for. So neurodivergent individuals can look, look for that are, you know, designated job boards for neurodivergent people. So, you know, if there's any listeners who are neurodivergent, that's a good place to start.
But I think when this happened to me with my, with social media, you know, your algorithms are gonna really start talking to you. Like when you start talking about this stuff and looking this stuff up and, and, you know, it's almost like, you know, our phones are so smart. My LinkedIn feed is endless resources because of my activity. So I think the more you start talking about it and looking into these things and reading articles, like you might read one or two articles, and then it's almost like the doors kind of open. I had no idea of the amazing efforts all over the United States that are happening in terms of neuro inclusivity.
You know, I will say the UK is ahead of us, and I think lots of people would agree with that. The UK is doing a really amazing job with neurodiversity effort. But there's lots of organizations that are doing really well and we do have a national speaker series. So we've had people from all over the US talk, and we'll continue to do that so that there's highlights on national efforts, not just local efforts.
EMILIE: I was going to ask you about the international perspective you bring to this. I'm glad you brought up the UK, you know, the research on Autism and all kinds of neurodiversity. Seems, if I know anything about this, which I know very little about, it seemed to be relatively new in terms of the grand scheme of, you know, scientific research. So why would it be the case that the UK is ahead of the curve and what did that take to make happen? And frankly, to add one more question to this laundry list, what made you come over here and relocate your business?
AMANDA: I suppose I'll say my reason I was, you know, I'm a clinician. I was a clinician. Not anymore, but for me, it was more that the United States had, I mean, I'm from Ireland, right? So not the United Kingdom. So different. And Ireland is definitely much smaller when it comes to even autism services and things like that. And I moved 10 years ago. It's come on a long way since then in some ways. But America was definitely, there was more supports and services and more support for the work that I did in the United States.
I think if you're talking about neurodiversity movement and neurodiversity efforts as a whole, there are a lot of organizations that are global organizations. And to be honest, I actually don't know why the United Kingdom has pulled so, I won't say so far ahead, but further ahead in some ways. And I think that part of it could be size. Sometimes with such a big country, it's hard to combine efforts in a way that's super meaningful because it can get diluted. But, you know, the UK is smaller and can kind of combine efforts for more impact.
EMILIE: Yeah, definitely. What do you hope to see here in the US like, what do you hope to see the future of neurodiversity look like, whether it's from the business perspective, the government perspective, or the individual?
AMANDA: What I hope to see is that, as a rule, businesses and organizations just understand that it just can't stay the same, that there has to be differences in thought. And I'm not even just talking about creativity. I just mean differences in the way that things are done and differences in thought and acceptance of differences. Because you're still obviously addressing gender bias if you layer neurodiversity on top of that.
EMILIE: On top of gender, race, age, all of those biases, yeah.
AMANDA: And that's the thing. That's why I love this space so much, because it doesn't matter. Because, like I said, neurological differences don't. They don't differentiate gender or race or anything else. It's an everybody thing. And, you know, one in five people are neurodivergent. That is a really, really big number of people. I mean, you go to a party and you're like, well, many people in this room are probably neurodivergent. So it's an everybody issue that we should all be concerned about.
And I just really want it to be a case where there's a lot more transparency. There's no fear for speaking up and saying, hey, this is something that I have a challenge with and either I need accommodations for this or I just want you to be aware of this without the fear of being ostracized or worse, fired, or not get the promotion that you deserve. And it's really just, it's a human issue of wanting people to be able to be who they are and not fear the consequences of just being who you are.
EMILIE: Is there a gendered element to the neurodiversity conversation? Does this show up differently for women or what does that intersection look like?
AMANDA: Yes, absolutely. So research is showing it is a well established phenomenon that there is a gender bias in, you know, I'll talk autism first. So there is a well established gender bias in autism assessment and diagnosis. And you know, there's explanations for under diagnosis of females that looks like gendered presentation of autism traits, lack of understanding of the female profile. And the one that I find the most interesting is, is that gold standard diagnostic tools for diagnosing autism were normed for a male population. So they aren't sensitive to the female phenotype.
EMILIE: Which is unfortunately very common in the medical community, right. Heart attacks, same thing.
AMANDA: Yes. You've heard this a thousand times. So this is not shocking news to you, but what happens is you have a CDC statistic that says five males to every one female are diagnosed with Autism. And that statistic is based on, you know, 8 year olds. But a lot of females get diagnosed, they don't present the same. Females have stronger verbal skills, they are able to engage in masking. And I don't know if everyone might be familiar with that term, but masking basically means that, you know, I've heard, I heard someone describe it as putting on their human suit. I thought that was hilarious. [LAUGHTER] But really women can look at their peers and go, okay, I know I don't feel like this, but I'm going to do the thing that that person's doing because they seem to be doing pretty well.
So they mask their symptoms and they might do really well at work, but it's to the detriment of their mental health. And then you've got massive instances of depression and anxiety. And even in the general population, right, males are more at risk for suicide than females. But in the autistic population, females are more at risk than males. And it's because a lot of females get diagnosed either not at all or really late. And they're missing those crucial supports that they need.
And there's also, I'm sure this is not a news story for you either, but like, misdiagnosis. Oh, it's not Autism, you're just depressed, right? Well, oftentimes that's not the case. So at Firefly Autism, we start. We opened a diagnostics program in August, and we are. We've been very surprised at the number of adults who have come through for diagnostic evaluations, and not just for Autism, for everything. So, yes, females are at a disadvantage when it comes to diagnoses. And you know, you mentioned, obviously, ADHD as well. I would be remiss not to mention that, you know, and dyslexia, these things look different in females and males, and it's missed so often, and it creates a scenario where there is yet another disadvantage to women in the workplace.
EMILIE: And it's such a reminder of the power of an early diagnosis, sometimes even the privilege of an early diagnosis that Alex Gilbert shared on this very podcast. You know, the moment she was diagnosed as a child, a whole bunch of resources came her way. So, it's so fascinating that so many adults are going back in for diagnostic evaluation because it does show us that the more awareness is raised around this, the more people feel a need that maybe they've been overlooked and maybe they could really use some support. Maybe they don't have to suffer on their own if their coping mechanisms have left them exhausted and beleaguered and without support, they're very much entitled to.
AMANDA: Yeah, exactly. And there's a sense of relief, I think, especially with adults, because what we hear are things like, I always knew X. I never thought that I fit in. Now I finally have the answer as to why, insert reasons here. So, and hearing those things like, I finally, I never knew, you know, I can't believe that now that I understand, I can take steps forward. And it's so wonderful in some ways and so not in other ways. You're like, I'm so sorry that it took this long.
EMILIE: But I think that’s true for every pioneer.
AMANDA: Totally.
EMILIE: And that's what you're doing. So good on you, Amanda and your co-founders. I think it's yet another incredible leader right here in Colorado who is changing the game. I feel like my podcast listeners are probably tired of me bragging about my life here in Colorado because I'm just so d*** proud of this state. It's like, everyone's doing such phenomenal work out here. So if you haven't, my Colorado dwellers will hate this. But I'll be unabashed if you haven't checked it out. Come see what the magic's all about here in Colorado. Amanda, where can my listeners keep up with you and your phenomenal work?
AMANDA: Our Chamber of Commerce website, cndcc.org, we are also on LinkedIn, on Facebook, so if you just Google us, you'll find all of those things. And our website is a great resource. And yeah, I am also personally on LinkedIn. So Amanda Kelly, very common name.
EMILIE: I'll drop your specific profile.
AMANDA: Thank you. I'm like, I have the most common name ever. But yes, we are really, we're definitely looking for, to expand this community. So join us.
EMILIE: I love it. Absolutely. So I'll drop links to all of those related notes and websites and LinkedIn profiles below. Thank you so much for being here, Amanda. It's been a pleasure.
AMANDA: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
EMILIE: For links to everything Amanda and I just talked about, head to bossedup.org/episode508. That's bossedup.org/episode508, where you'll also find a fully written out transcript and a blog post summarizing today's conversational key points. And now I want to hear from you. As always, let's keep the conversation going after each episode in the Bossed Up Courage Community on Facebook or in the Bossed Up LinkedIn Group. I want to know how this conversation is landing with you here in 2025. What do you make of the recent conversations that are happening around Autism and its increasing rates in America? What are your thoughts on how we should talk about the autistic community and all kinds of elements of neurodiversity?
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I'd love to hear what you you think. And my inbox is always open at emilie@bossedup.org until next time, let's keep bossin’ in pursuit of our purpose, and together let's lift as we climb.
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